I recently received a published form from the State of Florida showing that ARNPs increased 22% over the past two years. RNs only increased by 7.4% If you are a new grad wondering why you can't find a position here is your answer. Our NP mills have pumped out too many graduates for the demand of society. I don't have the data to back it up but if this is happening in Florida I would assume it is happening around the nation.
I'm licensed in Florida but moved to California years ago because I could see the tsunami of new graduates slowly starting to erode the wages of established NPs. It's now happening here in California and I have been directly affected. I can count at least another dozen of my NP colleagues around the nation who are complaining of wage deflation happening because new grads will accept a position at almost any wage. Starting wages are below those for RNs in some cases.
For those of you thinking of becoming a NP think and long and hard before you commit your money and your time. The job is enjoyable but the return on investment is declining year after the year with the flooding of the markets. Maybe one day the leaders of our nursing schools will open a book on economics and understand the relationship between supply and demand rather than stuff another useless nursing theory down our throats.
It is the de facto standard for most distant education schools. Of the ten or so NP's that I know who went via distance education (9 FNP's and one PMHNP my SO) none went to schools that "found" them preceptors. A few "suggested" possible preceptors based upon preceptors used by previous students. It is just to hard when the school is in North Dakota, or Washington State, or Hawaii and the student is in Mississippi, Florida, or West Virginia. It it just too hard for a school that may have never had a student from your town (and no one on the the ground) to arrange this. Also, it has been suggested more than once in this thread (I'm not saying by you) that we need to restrict schools that don't find preceptors. I say that is nonsense. Rather, schools need to be transparent and let students make informed decisions.
Specializes in Psychiatric and Mental Health NP (PMHNP).
44 minutes ago, myoglobin said:
Okay let me tackle some of these:
1. Johns Hopkins (I use them as a reference since they are one of the programs that takes distant students and indicates they find preceptors). Here is a link from the US News and World Report site for online NP programs https://www.usnews.com/education/online-education/johns-hopkins-university-ONUR0168/nursing and it lists around $1630.00 per credit hour. If they require the 42 credit hours that my school requires for a Masters PMHNP (not a secondary certification) then that comes to 42x$1630=68,460. Now my school (USI) charges around $375 (it has gone up it was around $330 when I started) or $13,860 for a difference of $54,600.
2. I did contact USF (UCF doesn't offer a masters level PMHNP program) and they said they place in Tampa (about two hours away) and t they show preference to students who did their undergraduate work there (and they are just as expensive).
3. Why would I would to delegate the power and control of finding my own preceptors? How many of you remember nursing school (your ASN or BSN) I don't know about you, but many of my "preceptor" experiences were absolutely miserable even though they were technically "arranged" by the school. Indeed, even though I was in an "adult evening" program that was supposedly flexible I still had to quit my job at the time because they put me in dayshift clinical in my third semester with about two weeks notice. My point is that there are advantages and disadvantages to finding your own preceptors. Also, I do not denigrate those of you who choose to go to a school where preceptors are found. On the contrary I applaud a system with maximum choice. However, I do take offence to those who denigrate the choice of myself and others who choose a different approach and even more offense at those who would advocate regulatory change which would deprive students such as myself of the opportunity to make that choice. By the way according to the site listed abovehttps://www.usnews.com/education/online-education/johns-hopkins-university-ONUR0168/nursing Hopkins doesn't require a GRE and their minimum GPA is 3.0 (I mention this as previous comments seemed to denigrate "lessor" institutions for having these parameters).
1. I specifically told you the price for a Post-Master's PMHNP which is right off the JHUSON website of $28,000.
2. Again, you are hung up on Hopkins. There are many public universities and colleges with more affordable programs.
3. Again, programs that find preceptors are more than happy if the student can come up with their own preceptors.
There is no way you are going to convince me or most of the other folks on this forum that it is okay for schools to just expect students to go find their own preceptors. That is a disgrace to the profession. Given the amount of money that schools are charging, they can certainly afford to put in the legwork to help students secure clinical placements.
Specializes in Psychiatric and Mental Health NP (PMHNP).
58 minutes ago, myoglobin said:
Hopkins doesn't require a GRE and their minimum GPA is 3.0 (I mention this as previous comments seemed to denigrate "lessor" institutions for having these parameters).
I have previously, on multiple indications, addressed the GRE issue. The GRE is NOT a good predictor of success in graduate programs. It is also discriminatory. That is why more and more schools, including schools like Hopkins and Harvard, are dropping the GRE. The only thing the GRE tests is the ability to take the GRE. There is NOTHING in the GRE relevant to being an NP.
Hopkins requires a minimum 3.0 GPA, but I can assure you very few people with only a 3.0 GPA are admitted. This allows Hopkins to exercise discretion and admit outstanding candidates who may have had to work full time and/or have families during their BSN program. Hopkins considers other factors, such as work experience, volunteer experience, life experience, and how the candidate interviews. Hopkins is very difficult to get into.
So, I'm not sure what the purpose of your comment is. Very few people get into selective schools like Hopkins, Yale, UCLA, etc., by definition. ANYONE with a pulse can get into for-profit schools.
Goodness, at least in California, it is very difficult to get into a public community college ADN program because those are the best bang for your buck in terms of quality and affordability. There are long waiting lists for those programs.
I have previously, on multiple indications, addressed the GRE issue. The GRE is NOT a good predictor of success in graduate programs. It is also discriminatory. That is why more and more schools, including schools like Hopkins and Harvard, are dropping the GRE. The only thing the GRE tests is the ability to take the GRE. There is NOTHING in the GRE relevant to being an NP.
Hopkins requires a minimum 3.0 GPA, but I can assure you very few people with only a 3.0 GPA are admitted. This allows Hopkins to exercise discretion and admit outstanding candidates who may have had to work full time and/or have families during their BSN program. Hopkins considers other factors, such as work experience, volunteer experience, life experience, and how the candidate interviews. Hopkins is very difficult to get into.
So, I'm not sure what the purpose of your comment is. Very few people get into selective schools like Hopkins, Yale, UCLA, etc., by definition. ANYONE with a pulse can get into for-profit schools.
Goodness, at least in California, it is very difficult to get into a public community college ADN program because those are the best bang for your buck in terms of quality and affordability. There are long waiting lists for those programs.
It is not "a disgrace" it is an option. Also, many ADN programs have challenging admission standards. My class at Ivy Tech in Indianapolis had something like 600 applicants for 45 spots all of whom met minimum criteria, and I would wager that these sorts of stats are typical at lower cost programs). Also I would wager good money that many if not most (indeed I believe almost all) provide the caveat that you "may have to move" for them to find you preceptors. There is a limiting fact here and that is many people live in a city/town or rural area that has only one, two or three psychiatric clinics (that will even consider taking students) within a two hour drive. Add in further limiting factors such as my programs requirement that "all age groups" must be seen at the practice and "no inpatient is allowed save for a few observational hours" and add in other requirements (that my school doesn't have, but I have seen from schools like The University of South Alabama that at least 60 hours must be with a PMHNP and it just isn't reasonable. What's wrong with offering the option, and letting students decide? You want to go to a school that finds preceptors (not that I believe they can on a consistent basis for out of state students), fine. I want to go to a school that doesn't , also fine. Let people find that path that best suits their lifestyle and situation.
Specializes in DPT, DNP. Ortho, Family Practice, Psych..
This conversation has run its course. We’re not going to see eye to eye on this topic, and that’s totally fine. When all is said and done, we all want what’s best for the profession (how we get there is a different story). I will be doing what I can to promote what I feel is best for the profession. There should be better standards, and hopefully, I can be a change agent to make that happen.
This conversation has run its course. We’re not going to see eye to eye on this topic, and that’s totally fine. When all is said and done, we all want what’s best for the profession (how we get there is a different story). I will be doing what I can to promote what I feel is best for the profession. There should be better standards, and hopefully, I can be a change agent to make that happen.
Just know that so long as I have breath in my body I will be a "change agent" dedicated not only to opposing any effort that would restrict opportunities for those like myself who are working adults or have families but expanding such opportunities for any who might aspire to improve their educations. Also, anyone who is having difficulties in finding preceptors is welcome to contact me and I will explain my " almost can't fail" system that will facilitate their endeavors. That is change you can count on.
Specializes in DPT, DNP. Ortho, Family Practice, Psych..
26 minutes ago, myoglobin said:
Just know that so long as I have breath in my body I will be a "change agent" dedicated not only to opposing any effort that would restrict opportunities for those like myself who are working adults or have families but expanding such opportunities for any who might aspire to improve their educations. Also, anyone who is having difficulties in finding preceptors is welcome to contact me and I will explain my " almost can't fail" system that will facilitate their endeavors. That is change you can count on.
Haha you crack me up myoglobin. Your last breath? lol cmon man. In all seriousness though I respect that we don’t see eye to eye. Happens all the time.
Keep finding your preceptors, and keep pushing for other students to desperately find clinical sites. Just know that others won’t be as fortunate as you to find a preceptor. There are plenty of students who delay graduation or do not finish school because they can’t find people to precept them. Me and @FullGlass both believe that preceptors should come with the tuition. We’re not implying that students MUST use those preceptors. Provide the preceptors, and give them the option of finding their own if they would like. No one is forcing you to do anything. No one is parading on your autonomy or family. I’m just waiting for someone to agree with anything you’ve said. I’ve never met anyone holds your viewpoint, so it’d be nice to hear from someone else who shares the same opinion.
Haha you crack me up myoglobin. Your last breath? lol cmon man. In all seriousness though I respect that we don’t see eye to eye. Happens all the time.
Keep finding your preceptors, and keep pushing for other students to desperately find clinical sites. Just know that others won’t be as fortunate as you to find a preceptor. There are plenty of students who delay graduation or do not finish school because they can’t find people to precept them. Me and @FullGlass both believe that preceptors should come with the tuition. We’re not implying that students MUST use those preceptors. Provide the preceptors, and give them the option of finding their own if they would like. No one is forcing you to do anything. No one is parading on your autonomy or family. I’m just waiting for someone to agree with anything you’ve said. I’ve never met anyone holds your viewpoint, so it’d be nice to hear from someone else who shares the same opinion.
As long as you think it should be optional we have no disagreement. Have you guys encountered distance education schools that are able to place students at diverse locations around the nation? If so they should be applauded. If they can do it for under $500.00 per credit hour then they are even more impressive. I couldn't care a whit if anyone agrees with me. You may not be moving towards regulations that require preceptors to be provided, but others are and if they succeed you will see both cost and access decreased. As to whether anyone agrees with me I really couldn't care even on little bit.
A debate is good, making it sound personal is not. I agree with points that both of you have made. I don’t agree with getting all “no one likes you, but they like me, so I am right” argument. Perhaps it wasn’t intended in a moment of frustration, but that is how I read it. Slow down man, everyone has frustrations in school and there is no PERFECT program.
I am doing a slightly distance education program through my chosen PUBLIC SCHOOL that is VERY selective and in the top 20 programs in the country. They want me to find my own preceptors, but they do provide a very comprehensive list of ones with existing contracts in my area with contact numbers. I am not hunting anything on my own. I have choices.
Quite frankly I think that is the answer. Not hand holding at a graduate level, but here are your choices that we already have that can be fast tracked and know about our program and what will need to be done to help prepare our students. No fuss, no muss, no hidden agendas or fees.
Bottom line is either you want it enough to get your career on track or you don’t. My great grandmother was Native American, first off the reservation, single mom, became a geriatric nurse. Nothing was done FOR her, man she must have been pissed to be ripped off....not.
A debate is good, making it sound personal is not. I agree with points that both of you have made. I don’t agree with getting all “no one likes you, but they like me, so I am right” argument. Perhaps it wasn’t intended in a moment of frustration, but that is how I read it. Slow down man, everyone has frustrations in school and there is no PERFECT program.
I am doing a slightly distance education program through my chosen PUBLIC SCHOOL that is VERY selective and in the top 20 programs in the country. They want me to find my own preceptors, but they do provide a very comprehensive list of ones with existing contracts in my area with contact numbers. I am not hunting anything on my own. I have choices.
Quite frankly I think that is the answer. Not hand holding at a graduate level, but here are your choices that we already have that can be fast tracked and know about our program and what will need to be done to help prepare our students. No fuss, no muss, no hidden agendas or fees.
Bottom line is either you want it enough to get your career on track or you don’t. My great grandmother was Native American, first off the reservation, single mom, became a geriatric nurse. Nothing was done FOR her, man she must have been pissed to be ripped off....not.
Which school do you go? Do they have PMHNP program? I'm hunting for a dchool with good reputation, rrasonable tuition and will assist students for clinical placements. I don't want them to appoint one for me, but having some pre-existing contract and contact is good enough.
University of Virginia. For graduate admissions they do not require the GRE. I believe they do require a 3.5 gpa in undergrad work. I am enrolled in the FP BSN to DNP because I am interested in teaching eventually, but not so concerned about tenure. The masters portion requires campus work which I can commute for. The DNP portion is mostly online work. You can sit for boards and begin practice as a NP prior to graduating with the DNP. I have strong and broad interests in hospice, palliative and aneurotypical populations. Of course I am also interested in preventative care and trying to keep people out of the currently toxic hospital environments. They have some fantastic professors that have done some great work in all of these areas. It is definitely worth your time to research who you will be learning from as well. Good Luck!
University of Virginia. For graduate admissions they do not require the GRE. I believe they do require a 3.5 gpa in undergrad work. I am enrolled in the FP BSN to DNP because I am interested in teaching eventually, but not so concerned about tenure. The masters portion requires campus work which I can commute for. The DNP portion is mostly online work. You can sit for boards and begin practice as a NP prior to graduating with the DNP. I have strong and broad interests in hospice, palliative and aneurotypical populations. Of course I am also interested in preventative care and trying to keep people out of the currently toxic hospital environments. They have some fantastic professors that have done some great work in all of these areas. It is definitely worth your time to research who you will be learning from as well. Good Luck!
Thank you,zenlover. I just checked their program. They actually have rather strict requirement,whichbis good, for NO program. But it says that applicants need to have Virginia RN license before the first day if class. Does that mean all clinicals would be done in VA? If not, I wonder why they require VA RN license.
myoglobin, ASN, BSN, MSN
1,453 Posts
It is the de facto standard for most distant education schools. Of the ten or so NP's that I know who went via distance education (9 FNP's and one PMHNP my SO) none went to schools that "found" them preceptors. A few "suggested" possible preceptors based upon preceptors used by previous students. It is just to hard when the school is in North Dakota, or Washington State, or Hawaii and the student is in Mississippi, Florida, or West Virginia. It it just too hard for a school that may have never had a student from your town (and no one on the the ground) to arrange this. Also, it has been suggested more than once in this thread (I'm not saying by you) that we need to restrict schools that don't find preceptors. I say that is nonsense. Rather, schools need to be transparent and let students make informed decisions.