I recently received a published form from the State of Florida showing that ARNPs increased 22% over the past two years. RNs only increased by 7.4% If you are a new grad wondering why you can't find a position here is your answer. Our NP mills have pumped out too many graduates for the demand of society. I don't have the data to back it up but if this is happening in Florida I would assume it is happening around the nation.
I'm licensed in Florida but moved to California years ago because I could see the tsunami of new graduates slowly starting to erode the wages of established NPs. It's now happening here in California and I have been directly affected. I can count at least another dozen of my NP colleagues around the nation who are complaining of wage deflation happening because new grads will accept a position at almost any wage. Starting wages are below those for RNs in some cases.
For those of you thinking of becoming a NP think and long and hard before you commit your money and your time. The job is enjoyable but the return on investment is declining year after the year with the flooding of the markets. Maybe one day the leaders of our nursing schools will open a book on economics and understand the relationship between supply and demand rather than stuff another useless nursing theory down our throats.
Specializes in Psychiatric and Mental Health NP (PMHNP).
1 hour ago, myoglobin said:
Hopkins by definition probably represents the top 10% of applicants. Good for them, but most of us are "by definition" within a standard deviation of the 50th percentile (as applicants) and we need places to go to school as well. Again, just because someone scores higher (or gets better grades) doesn't mean they will be a superior NP (to someone who scores less) it is of course one factor, but there are many.
I previously provided more affordable examples of schools that find preceptors, such as UCLA and Cal State LA. Cal State LA is much more affordable than most for-profit schools, for California residents. There are plenty of mid-range, affordable schools that will find preceptors. Schools have a hard time finding preceptors, so if a student can help with this process, the school will likely be delighted. While at Hopkins, I recruited 2 more preceptors because I did well in clinicals and other providers at the site indicated they would be willing to precept as a result.
Hopkins by definition probably represents the top 10% of applicants. Good for them, but most of us are "by definition" within a standard deviation of the 50th percentile (as applicants) and we need places to go to school as well. Again, just because someone scores higher (or gets better grades) doesn't mean they will be a superior NP (to someone who scores less) it is of course one factor, but there are many.
Schools that find preceptors for out of state students are the exception and not the rule. Also, I don’t see the innate advantage of a school that provides them verses one that does not. Finding your own preceptor on the other hand empowers the student to find the preceptor most compatible with the students schedule, and personality. Also, I doubt that few if any of the MD’s in central Florida who have a community practice even give a hoot whether or not someone goes to Hopkins or Bum state. Of the maybe 25 that I talked to (in looking for both medical and psychiatric preceptor) maybe one or two were even educated in the continental United States. The rest came from Pakistan, India, or Puerto Rico and we’re so busy with seeing patients that finding even five minutes to talk was a challenge. Perhaps you are correct that I would have a challenge finding preceptors in Baltimore, (especially since I have the social skills of a slug, and open derision for the intellectual elitism often found on the coasts and big cities). However, it took me maybe two weeks to find my preceptors and I had two to three backups both for medical and psychiatry. If people choose those relatively rare and costly schools that find preceptors good for them, the rest of us do fine with the schools that don’t.
Schools that find preceptors for out of state students are the exception and not the rule. Also, I don’t see the innate advantage of a school that provides them verses one that does not. Finding your own preceptor on the other hand empowers the student to find the preceptor most compatible with the students schedule, and personality. Also, I doubt that few if any of the MD’s in central Florida who have a community practice even give a hoot whether or not someone goes to Hopkins or Bum state. Of the maybe 25 that I talked to (in looking for both medical and psychiatric preceptor) maybe one or two were even educated in the continental United States. The rest came from Pakistan, India, or Puerto Rico and we’re so busy with seeing patients that finding even five minutes to talk was a challenge. Perhaps you are correct that I would have a challenge finding preceptors in Baltimore, (especially since I have the social skills of a slug, and open derision for the intellectual elitism often found on the coasts and big cities). However, it took me maybe two weeks to find my preceptors and I had two to three backups both for medical and psychiatry. If people choose those relatively rare and costly schools that find preceptors good for them, the rest of us do fine with the schools that don’t.
Theoretically, a preceptor provided by the school would offer consistency in education. I would hope/assume that schools who arrange preceptors have folks who are vested educators and that they've used before with good results..
Theoretically, a preceptor provided by the school would offer consistency in education. I would hope/assume that schools who arrange preceptors have folks who are vested educators and that they've used before with good results..
Perhaps, but in the case of distance education it is likely that you will be "the first" student in your community who has worked with that school. Also, consider that perhaps 70 to 80% of the MD's involved in primary care (in my area) haven't even been "stateside" for even five years. Compound this with the fact that they are not paid and are so busy they usually don't even take lunch breaks (and work until at least 7PM even though their last appointment is 1630) and you take who you can find. I truly doubt that even if Johns Hopkins were endowed with a special100million dollar grant (provided they could not pay providers directly with cash rewards) and a personal visits including dinner with President Trump and Barrack Obama at some point in the future (to any potential clinic that takes applicants) that they could consistently place students in the "po dunk" South, let alone your average small to medium sized state school who cannot muster such resources.
Perhaps, but in the case of distance education it is likely that you will be "the first" student in your community who has worked with that school. Also, consider that perhaps 70 to 80% of the MD's involved in primary care (in my area) have even been "stateside" for even five years. Compound this with the fact that they are not paid and are so busy they usually don't even take lunch breaks (and work until at least 7PM even though their last appointment is 1630) and you take who you can find. I truly doubt that even if Johns Hopkins were endowed with a special100million dollar grant (provided they could pay providers directly) and a personal visits including dinner with President Trump and Barrack Obama at some point in the future (to any potential clinic that takes applicants) that they could consistently place students in the "po dunk" South, let alone your average small to medium sized state school who cannot muster such resources.
I can't argue that.. I hope to be attending a brick and mortar school with a good reputation so that I (hopefully) don't have to worry about trying to find good educators to precept me.
Specializes in Psychiatric and Mental Health NP (PMHNP).
3 hours ago, FiremedicMike said:
Theoretically, a preceptor provided by the school would offer consistency in education. I would hope/assume that schools who arrange preceptors have folks who are vested educators and that they've used before with good results..
The problem with schools that don't find preceptors is that the students have no guarantee of finding one. Good for you that you were able to find preceptors. However, this forum is full of complaints from students who are looking for preceptors or can't find any. Personally, I think it is tantamount to fraud for a school to take a student's money, but then make the student responsible for locating a resource necessary for graduation.
The problem with schools that don't find preceptors is that the students have no guarantee of finding one. Good for you that you were able to find preceptors. However, this forum is full of complaints from students who are looking for preceptors or can't find any. Personally, I think it is tantamount to fraud for a school to take a student's money, but then make the student responsible for locating a resource necessary for graduation.
1,000% agree. Is this really any different than paying tuition and having the program say "you'll need to find your own textbooks for this program, just find ones that relate to the practice model you're pursuing and seem interesting to you"?
We are told that we need to find preceptors upfront when applying and have to sign forms attesting to that fact. I was also told that if I was willing to relocate to Evansville or Indianapolis that they could place me. Even Hopkins advised that they could not guarantee LOCAL placement when I inquired via email about five years ago. I would have gone wherever had it been necessary, thankfully it was not. Most anyone can find preceptors if they send enough letters, make enough calls and visit enough offices IF they are willing to move if necessary. One thing is for sure Hopkins would have cost at least 50k more that buys a lot of letters.
Specializes in Psychiatric and Mental Health NP (PMHNP).
12 minutes ago, myoglobin said:
We are told that we need to find preceptors upfront when applying and have to sign forms attesting to that fact. I was also told that if I was willing to relocate to Evansville or Indianapolis that they could place me. Even Hopkins advised that they could not guarantee LOCAL placement when I inquired via email about five years ago. I would have gone wherever had it been necessary, thankfully it was not. Most anyone can find preceptors if they send enough letters, make enough calls and visit enough offices IF they are willing to move if necessary. One thing is for sure Hopkins would have cost at least 50k more that buys a lot of letters.
I don't know why you are so hung up on Hopkins. I gave you other examples of STATE schools that are affordable and also find preceptors. Granted, those are for local residents, but I'm sure Florida also has state universities and colleges.
Hopkins is expensive because it is a great school and also offers outstanding services to its students, along with a great alumni network. They put a lot of effort into finding GOOD preceptors and clinical rotation sites and also monitor preceptor performance. It is telling that your preceptors appeared to have all been foreign and new to the US - not a good indicator high quality. I went to Hopkins and am comfortable that I got my money's worth.
My preceptors told me they would only precept students from certain schools because they had had too many bad experiences with students from crappy schools.
As for cost, Hopkins is actually quite affordable for a private school. They offer excellent financial aid and have a lot of special grants for their students. Since the school is well-endowed, they have special scholarships just for their students. In addition, they get special government education grants. Finally, Hopkins students have a much higher chance of winning full ride scholarships like NHSC and Nurse Corps (which I did). For my NP program, which was 2 years, I only paid for 6 months. The rest was covered by a full ride Nurse Corps scholarship that included a small living stipend.
I am currently waitlisted for their Post-Master's PMHNP Certificate. The tuition is $28,108 for the whole program. I think that is quite reasonable given the huge bump in pay I will receive once I am a PMHNP. Basically, I will have a 1-2 year ROI and my employer will also pay for part of the cost.
The JHUSON application process is highly competitive and not everyone gets in. One must have a good GPA, recommendations, be able to write good admissions essays, and also go through an interview. I am currently in a remote rural area, and during the interview, was asked if I knew of locations near me that could precept a PMHNP student. (I did know of several locations within a reasonable distance) and I was informed that Hopkins would contact these sites on my behalf to get a preceptor, but of course any assistance I could provide would be great. They also have quality standards for preceptors and don't just dump students anywhere that will take them.
I'm sure that Hopkins would be quite capable of finding preceptors in Florida.
The other issue I've seen on this job board is students who complain they are going to get kicked out of their program. At schools like Hopkins, they are committed to having the highest possible graduation rate and will bend over backwards to work with students to ensure they can graduate.
As for finding a job - I got a lot of interviews as a new grad because doctors (who hire most NPs) were impressed with the Hopkins name. Doctors are very conscious of what the best schools are. In addition, Hopkins put a lot of work into making sure students were well prepared for job search, and also provided accurate information on expected salary, etc. We had a great job counselor who worked individually with every student to get their resume in great shape. We also had a great alumni network to draw on (doctors and NPs). EVERY student in my AGPC NP class had a job offer from a clinical site upon graduation. Not only that, we had regular job fairs and special visits from potential employers to recruit us.
As far as I'm concerned, Hopkins was worth every penny. There are also plenty of excellent public university and college NP programs that are quite affordable AND PROVIDE PRECEPTORS.
Specializes in DPT, DNP. Ortho, Family Practice, Psych..
28 minutes ago, FullGlass said:
I don't know why you are so hung up on Hopkins. I gave you other examples of STATE schools that are affordable and also find preceptors. Granted, those are for local residents, but I'm sure Florida also has state universities and colleges.
Hopkins is expensive because it is a great school and also offers outstanding services to its students, along with a great alumni network. They put a lot of effort into finding GOOD preceptors and clinical rotation sites and also monitor preceptor performance. It is telling that your preceptors appeared to have all been foreign and new to the US - not a good indicator high quality. I went to Hopkins and am comfortable that I got my money's worth.
My preceptors told me they would only precept students from certain schools because they had had too many bad experiences with students from crappy schools.
As for cost, Hopkins is actually quite affordable for a private school. They offer excellent financial aid and have a lot of special grants for their students. Since the school is well-endowed, they have special scholarships just for their students. In addition, they get special government education grants. Finally, Hopkins students have a much higher chance of winning full ride scholarships like NHSC and Nurse Corps (which I did). For my NP program, which was 2 years, I only paid for 6 months. The rest was covered by a full ride Nurse Corps scholarship that included a small living stipend.
I am currently waitlisted for their Post-Master's PMHNP Certificate. The tuition is $28,108 for the whole program. I think that is quite reasonable given the huge bump in pay I will receive once I am a PMHNP. Basically, I will have a 1-2 year ROI and my employer will also pay for part of the cost.
The JHUSON application process is highly competitive and not everyone gets in. One must have a good GPA, recommendations, be able to write good admissions essays, and also go through an interview. I am currently in a remote rural area, and during the interview, was asked if I knew of locations near me that could precept a PMHNP student. (I did know of several locations within a reasonable distance) and I was informed that Hopkins would contact these sites on my behalf to get a preceptor, but of course any assistance I could provide would be great. They also have quality standards for preceptors and don't just dump students anywhere that will take them.
I'm sure that Hopkins would be quite capable of finding preceptors in Florida.
The other issue I've seen on this job board is students who complain they are going to get kicked out of their program. At schools like Hopkins, they are committed to having the highest possible graduation rate and will bend over backwards to work with students to ensure they can graduate.
As for finding a job - I got a lot of interviews as a new grad because doctors (who hire most NPs) were impressed with the Hopkins name. Doctors are very conscious of what the best schools are. In addition, Hopkins put a lot of work into making sure students were well prepared for job search, and also provided accurate information on expected salary, etc. We had a great job counselor who worked individually with every student to get their resume in great shape. We also had a great alumni network to draw on (doctors and NPs). EVERY student in my AGPC NP class had a job offer from a clinical site upon graduation. Not only that, we had regular job fairs and special visits from potential employers to recruit us.
As far as I'm concerned, Hopkins was worth every penny. There are also plenty of excellent public university and college NP programs that are quite affordable AND PROVIDE PRECEPTORS.
@FullGlass: myoglobin is the only person I’ve talked to (forum, in-person or otherwise) who has suggested that finding your own preceptors is advantageous. You’re already paying the tuition: that should cover the school finding you preceptors, plain and simple. The pros do not outweigh the cons by any stretch of the imagination.
GWU has contracts in Illinois that I could have used. I chose not to use one of them because of the distance, but that was my choice. Not having any options on the table to begin with is not beneficial for the profession. Again, PTs, Pharmacists, PAs, dentists, optometrists, etc all have clinical sites for the students. That should be the norm and the standard by which we practice. Schools have decided that they all want in on this cash cow business; if there’s no accountability, these schools will keep churning out NPs. It’s a disgrace and I’m embarrassed by it.
Hopkins is a great school and it does matter where you go. I went to Rush for my MSN and I considered doing their DNP PMHNP (top 3 in country). These things matter in the face of significant over saturation. As a new grad PT, you can get a job anywhere within the month. Unfortunately, I believe PT is heading down the same route as pharmacy and nursing.
1. Johns Hopkins (I use them as a reference since they are one of the programs that takes distant students and indicates they find preceptors). Here is a link from the US News and World Report site for online NP programs https://www.usnews.com/education/online-education/johns-hopkins-university-ONUR0168/nursing and it lists around $1630.00 per credit hour. If they require the 42 credit hours that my school requires for a Masters PMHNP (not a secondary certification) then that comes to 42x$1630=68,460. Now my school (USI) charges around $375 (it has gone up it was around $330 when I started) or $13,860 for a difference of $54,600.
2. I did contact USF (UCF doesn't offer a masters level PMHNP program) and they said they place in Tampa (about two hours away) and t they show preference to students who did their undergraduate work there (and they are just as expensive).
3. Why would I would to delegate the power and control of finding my own preceptors? How many of you remember nursing school (your ASN or BSN) I don't know about you, but many of my "preceptor" experiences were absolutely miserable even though they were technically "arranged" by the school. Indeed, even though I was in an "adult evening" program that was supposedly flexible I still had to quit my job at the time because they put me in dayshift clinical in my third semester with about two weeks notice. My point is that there are advantages and disadvantages to finding your own preceptors. Also, I do not denigrate those of you who choose to go to a school where preceptors are found. On the contrary I applaud a system with maximum choice. However, I do take offence to those who denigrate the choice of myself and others who choose a different approach and even more offense at those who would advocate regulatory change which would deprive students such as myself of the opportunity to make that choice. By the way according to the site listed abovehttps://www.usnews.com/education/online-education/johns-hopkins-university-ONUR0168/nursing Hopkins doesn't require a GRE and their minimum GPA is 3.0 (I mention this as previous comments seemed to denigrate "lessor" institutions for having these parameters).
Specializes in DPT, DNP. Ortho, Family Practice, Psych..
14 minutes ago, myoglobin said:
Okay let me tackle some of these:
1. Johns Hopkins (I use them as a reference since they are one of the programs that takes distant students and indicates they find preceptors). Here is a link from the US News and World Report site for online NP programs https://www.usnews.com/education/online-education/johns-hopkins-university-ONUR0168/nursing and it lists around $1630.00 per credit hour. If they require the 42 credit hours that my school requires for a Masters PMHNP (not a secondary certification) then that comes to 42x$1630=68,460. Now my school (USI) charges around $375 (it has gone up it was around $330 when I started) or $13,860 for a difference of $54,600.
2. I did contact USF (UCF doesn't offer a masters level PMHNP program) and they said they place in Tampa (about two hours away) and t they show preference to students who did their undergraduate work there (and they are just as expensive).
3. Why would I would to delegate the power and control of finding my own preceptors? How many of you remember nursing school (your ASN or BSN) I don't know about you, but many of my "preceptor" experiences were absolutely miserable even though they were technically "arranged" by the school. Indeed, even though I was in an "adult evening" program that was supposedly flexible I still had to quit my job at the time because they put me in dayshift clinical in my third semester with about two weeks notice. My point is that there are advantages and disadvantages to finding your own preceptors. Also, I do not denigrate those of you who choose to go to a school where preceptors are found. On the contrary I applaud a system with maximum choice. However, I do take offence to those who denigrate the choice of myself and others who choose a different approach and even more offense at those who would advocate regulatory change which would deprive students such as myself of the opportunity to make that choice. By the way according to the site listed abovehttps://www.usnews.com/education/online-education/johns-hopkins-university-ONUR0168/nursing Hopkins doesn't require a GRE and their minimum GPA is 3.0 (I mention this as previous comments seemed to denigrate "lessor" institutions for having these parameters).
No one is denigrating anything. If you’re referencing me, please read what I wrote: I had preceptors to choose from and I chose to find one on my own for a particular clinical. That’s still autonomy to find you’re own preceptor. I chose 3 that were provided to me (they were all great) and found one on my own due to distance. That should be the standard by which we practice. You want to find your own preceptor and do the extra work? Go do you. To even argue that that should be the standard for all schools is absurd.
FullGlass, BSN, MSN, NP
2 Articles; 1,962 Posts
I previously provided more affordable examples of schools that find preceptors, such as UCLA and Cal State LA. Cal State LA is much more affordable than most for-profit schools, for California residents. There are plenty of mid-range, affordable schools that will find preceptors. Schools have a hard time finding preceptors, so if a student can help with this process, the school will likely be delighted. While at Hopkins, I recruited 2 more preceptors because I did well in clinicals and other providers at the site indicated they would be willing to precept as a result.