Organ Donation Organization Unethical

allnurses Guide · Aug 21, 2016

If the family brings it up, we're supposed to call the OPO and one of their staff will come speak to the family. Of course we tell them we're going to call our OPO, and that an expert will answer their questions -- we don't simply ignore the question.

Well, that's fascinating.

We do not do that.

Hmmmm . .. now you've got me truly curious.

dangerous1 · Aug 21, 2016

Okay well lets turn the tables here for a second. It sounds to me like if that family had made decisions earlier about how end of life care would pan out, they would have avoided this entire situation in the first place. Were you in the patients room and heard them say, without any doubt in their minds, "no we do not wish to donate"? Are you sure there wasn't some of them saying yes, and the others no? If a donation person gets even one yes, its worth following up on if they can save the lives of up to 8 other people. Ever stop to think that it isn't the organ teams fault? Maybe the family is to blame? You know how many times I've seen siblings argue for DAYS about when to pull the plug? I know that grieving is important, and that everybody experiences grief differently, but you are refusing to see the facts that everybody is presenting.
The grieving families wishes ARE being respected. No means no, end of story. Something tells me you're only privy to one side of the situation and have formed a strong opinion, and are now blind to the other side. The companies don't have the time of day to spend persuading families to say yes. Somewhere else, right then and there, someone else is dying who WILL donate. You're being unreasonably one sided in this.
Also your comments are incredibly inflammatory and condescending. You make a post about a personal opinion, asking a question to an online community where there are professionals that have experienced it much more and at a much greater depth than you, and then get offended when they don't share the same view. These people have presented you with FACTS, not just opinions. Also...
You were the one that brought up the CEO pay in the first place... What are you trying to prove here? Take a couple of deep breaths and walk away from the keyboard before you get like this next time. Either that or get out of critical care, where people are going to die fairly consistently.

CEO was mentioned once throughout my original post. I love ICU, that's why I've been in it. Again, you may not have seen it.

Again, you may not have seen it. But, I have and other's too. You don't have to believe me, I came here because I wanted to know how other's feels about the process and if they experienced what I have. Clearly, a few people have, too. But, I'm glad you haven't.

I wanted to have discussion with a lot of nurses, glad that I did, because allnurses is a perfect place to have a discussion.

You can be pro organ donation and question certain practices. Inflammatory? How so? The only people that seems to be upset because they inferred questioning organ donation equates to being against it. I repeat. You can be pro organ donation and question certain practices.

dishes, BSN, RN · Aug 21, 2016

Family members have their reasons for refusing organ donation, if their reasons do not require more education, the reasons need to be respected. If for example an immigrant family originates from a country that has a known history of killing prisoners for their organs, the family may mistrust medical personal involved in the organ trade. If these families are repeatedly approached by an organ donor rep about agreeing to donate a deceased family members organs, their distrust of medical personal will likely increase.

whatwasithinking75 · Aug 21, 2016

Agree with you.

I've never experienced this in the work place ( thankfully.) However, When a loved one was on artificial venelation and deemed to be "brain dead" People from an unnamed organization were RELENTLESS and would NOT stop bothering us to make the right decision.

More rules need to be regulated. If the family says NO once it should be NO.

Sorry you're put in these types of situations it has to be morally and ethically difficult for you.

OCNRN63, RN · Aug 21, 2016

Boo hoo.
Who cares about someone's feelings when LIVES are on the line? The pursuit of organ donation should be aggressive and persistent. We owe that much to those who are dying and to the families to know what their feelings may cost.
Organ donation is serious and should be treated as such, their tears will dry but dead is forever. Maybe their loved one's death will mean that others may live.
Feelings v. Life

This callous attitude is but one of many reasons why I am not an organ donor, nor do I want to be an organ recipient.

OCNRN63, RN · Aug 22, 2016

Agreed - we have to call Donor Network regardless of Advanced Directives or a will or any statement the patient does not want to donate.

Which to me is wrong, wrong, wrong. If the patient has made it clear that s/he doesn't want to be a donor, then that's that. It's really none of their business if that patient has died/is dying.

elkpark · Aug 22, 2016

Well, that's fascinating.
We do not do that.
Hmmmm . .. now you've got me truly curious.

Again, you work in Hospice, where people only become eligible for your services because their death is anticipated. General hospitals are v. different. Everywhere I've ever worked, it has been the hospital policy (I have no idea about the legal status) that hospital employees are not to discuss organ donation with individuals or family, other than to let them know that you'll be happy to contact the organ procurement people to come talk with them and answer their questions. I have always assumed that the reason is that they don't want random individuals (even random healthcare professionals) sharing possibly incorrect information and their own views and opinions on such a delicate and significant issue.

Scroll89 · Aug 22, 2016

CEO was mentioned once throughout my original post. I love ICU, that's why I've been in it. Again, you may not have seen it.
Again, you may not have seen it. But, I have and other's too. You don't have to believe me, I came here because I wanted to know how other's feels about the process and if they experienced what I have. Clearly, a few people have, too. But, I'm glad you haven't.
I wanted to have discussion with a lot of nurses, glad that I did, because allnurses is a perfect place to have a discussion.
You can be pro organ donation and question certain practices. Inflammatory? How so? The only people that seems to be upset because they inferred questioning organ donation equates to being against it. I repeat. You can be pro organ donation and question certain practices.

You asked for examples.. here you go.

I've been a critical care nurse for 6 years, I'm employed at a Southern California hospital that mandates all nurses taking care of poor prognosis patients to report them to one organ donation company. If a nurse fails to comply or report it to that "none profit" organization, even if the family does not want to donate organs, we are written up. Essentially, we are forced to call them regardless and this organization sends a nurse to persuade the next of kin in their vulnerable state. I mean within hours of being declared brain dead.
If the deceased did not make their wishes known about organ donation, nurses should not force another third party to come in and try to sales pitch them. I asked one of the family's what they said, and they said all the good things that come from it, i.e. a tragedy. I think the organ donation organization plays on their vulnerability.
I've done research on this particular organ donation company and the CEO makes well above $500,000. I've seen invoices from other hospitals the amount of money that goes into harvesting an organ and clearly have been disenchanted by the thought of donation. Additionally, this organization threw a thank you party for our unit because we had 6 organ "harvesting" in a month.
I feel there are HIPAA violations of reporting something to a third party without the family's knowledge and mandating it by the hospital. Note, we do not get permission from the family to divulging information about the decease.

First post, first time CEO was mentioned.

I have actually, 1-2 million, quick google is very taxing. But, let's not digress.
Bringing in a third party after the family already made their wishes known regarding organ donation and during the grieving process seems predatory and unethical.

Second time CEO was mentioned.

@ dirtyhippiegirl, BSN, RN
Bringing in a third party after the family already made their wishes known regarding organ donation and during the grieving process seems predatory and unethical. That's what I find unethical. Please let me know if there's more confusion.
I do know the different time frames when harvesting from someone that is declared brain dead and actively dying, do you? So, please don't passively question my knowledge and digress. You've been a nurse for 4 years, right, I can tell.

I forget, allnurses.com verifies licenses. Attacking someone's credibility, sounds like bullying, I forget we're nurses. We all know the trouble with bullying in our profession.

But, I'll leave without psuedo impartiality, psycho analyzing, unsolicited advice, and calling names. I respect your opinion Clearly.

Inflammatory. There are plenty of individuals in the world that are unscrupulous, anybody can identify that. What you did was attack people that didn't share the same opinion or viewpoint. Facts trump opinion, and attacking facts gets you nowhere.

morte, LPN, LVN · Aug 22, 2016

Quote from Asystole RN

Boo hoo

.

Who cares about someone's feelings when LIVES are on the line? The pursuit of organ donation should be aggressive and persistent. We owe that much to those who are dying and to the families to know what their feelings may cost.

Organ donation is serious and should be treated as such,

their tears will dry

but dead is forever. Maybe their loved one's death will mean that others may live.

Feelings v. Life

your crude and rude response is part of the problem. i am thinking you may have lost a loved one that did not get that transplant in time, if so, you neutrality is shot.

No, is NO. the end.

allnurses Guide · Aug 22, 2016

Again, you work in Hospice, where people only become eligible for your services because their death is anticipated. General hospitals are v. different. Everywhere I've ever worked, it has been the hospital policy (I have no idea about the legal status) that hospital employees are not to discuss organ donation with individuals or family, other than to let them know that you'll be happy to contact the organ procurement people to come talk with them and answer their questions. I have always assumed that the reason is that they don't want random individuals (even random healthcare professionals) sharing possibly incorrect information and their own views and opinions on such a delicate and significant issue.

Hi elkpark.

Our hospice patients are mostly at home and so there is no law pertaining to that but some have to be admitted to our local hospital on the SNF side due to an unsafe home situation or due to not having family members around to help them with their daily ADL's, etc., and sometimes depending on the issue on the acute side as well.

I'm going into work today and I'm going to ask around if there IS any such rule at our hospital or any law in the state that forbids us talking about donating organs.

dangerous1 · Aug 22, 2016

You asked for examples.. here you go.
First post, first time CEO was mentioned.
Second time CEO was mentioned.
Inflammatory. There are plenty of individuals in the world that are unscrupulous, anybody can identify that. What you did was attack people that didn't share the same opinion or viewpoint. Facts trump opinion, and attacking facts gets you nowhere.

You only posted my REPLIES to other's rude comments towards me. I don't know about you, but, I like answering people questions when they ask. Note, the CEO pay question. Interesting, no?

And $500,000 for a CEO? That's actually pretty darn low compared to other CEO pay (did you put in the same amount of effort in seeing how much the CEO of your facility makes?), especially if it's CA.

Well, you have to harvest fast because the body starts to decompose fairly quickly -- that's why there is pressure to talk to undecided families very quickly after the brain death diagnosis. But surely you know that if you've been an ICU nurse for six years?

Honestly, my first thought is you're a troll & LOVING the drama!!! (which I just fed into, oh well...)
I do hope you receive more thought-provoking & less 'passive-aggressive' replies.

Facts, would be including the original rude comments by posters directed at me. So, let's get our facts straight. I'm never outright rude, but, if you're going to be rude to me, I will be rude to you. I've said this before.

Since you ONLY chose to post my replies to other's very RUDE comments directed at me, there's obvious prejudices in your case.

I've agreed with people's opinion that are contrary to mine. You chose to ignore. Why? Doesn't fit your narrative. Again, another example of YOUR impartiality. Facts do trump impartiality.

Here's my examples of your impartiality and inflammatory comments. Clearly, I see why you rather attack my character than this discuss this topic.

Please, do yourself a favor and look up medical autopsy and body preparation at a mortuary.
What I'm failing to see is why individual nurses opinions on organ donation matter. The facts are solid, it saves lives. Does an opinion save lives?

Lastly, this really, has nothing to do with the question on hand. Although you may not want to discuss people's thoughts and opinions on the matter, many other's do. You don't have to comment here.

allnurses Guide · Aug 22, 2016

By the way . . . There is no way in heck the CEO of our California hospital makes over $500,000 . . . so is this the 3rd time CEO was mentioned?

I've been doing quite a bit of reading since this thread started and the OP (dangerous1) raised questions that are prevalent in the donation conversation.

As stated before, I'm pro-donation. My first experience was with the two *fresh* cadavers, male and female, we had for anatomy. The professor was firm ahead of time about there being no disrespect towards the bodies of the people who donated in order to help us learn. At the end of the class, some of us volunteered to get the bodies ready for the mortuary and it was a solemn and respectful occasion spearheaded by our prof.

But there are glitches in the system that need airing and there is no reason to chastise someone for raising questions about glitches regarding medical issues. How else do we learn?

As I've stated, this issue has me so curious now. Can't wait to get to work to start asking questions. :yes: