I am curious to know if you would be offended, if at church on Sunday your Pastor got up and said a prayer for Church Mice?
I mean he prayed that the mice be strengthened and given the ability to carry out their mousey duties and to eventually render the Church unusable, so that the Parisheners would finally have to pony up the dough to pay for a new Church.
ok I am kidding here is the original post but hey if you are just now reading this thread there have been many twists and turns and I no longer say a prayer over the deceased and yes largely due to many of the points made in this thread. Also NO i would not be offended if anyone of any belief Satanist, TO Catholic said prayers or whipered chants or whatever in my ear that said it was and is an interesting thread but please read about 5-10 of the current posts prior to posting
Now The
ORIGNAL POST
I am curious to know if you would be offended, after death if someone were to say a prayer over you.
I would really like to hear from as many Agnostic or Atheist as possible.
I recently began saying a prayer over anyone that dies in my presence. Many times I do not know if the person had a religious preference or not. I am curious to know if people would be offended if they knew someone was going to pray over them when they die.
here is the prayer
Dear Lord not our will but yours. Into thine hands we commend the spirit of this peaceful child of God. Prepare a place for him/her Now in Your Heavenly Kingdom![/Quote]
... and as far as logic goes (God, i hate people who talk about how logical they are and are proud of it, i think it is psychotic)... well, accepted logic used to be the world was flat. the universe revolved around the earth. disease was caused by "miasmas" that spontaneously generated.... logic is highly overrated.
The notion that the world was flat was never based on logic. It was a belief held by some theologicans based upon their interpretation of biblical scripture. There are passages in the Bible that, if taken literally, would lead one to believe that the earth is indeed flat. It was considered blasphemy to think otherwise. Copernicus, the 16th century astronomer, is one of many who challenged the flat-earth concept and theorized that the earth was spherical, based on logic and observation, and that the earth revolved around the sun. This was a risky notion, however:
"Two other Italian scientists of the time, Galileo and Bruno, embraced the Copernican theory unreservedly and as a result suffered much personal injury at the hands of the powerful church inquisitors. Giordano Bruno had the audacity to even go beyond Copernicus, and, dared to suggest, that space was boundless and that the sun was and its planets were but one of any number of similar systems.... For such blasphemy, Bruno was tried before the Inquisition, condemned and burned at the stake in 1600. Galileo was brought forward in 1633, and, there, in front of his "betters," he was, under the threat of torture and death, forced to his knees to renounce all belief in Copernican theories, and was thereafter sentenced to imprisonment for the remainder of his days."
Before you assert that logical thinking is "psychotic" and use the example of a flat earth, it would be wise understand the religious history of that particular "logic".
P.S. Merricat, I just wanted to say that I agree with you that people should not be suppressed from observing their religious faith. I believe in religious freedom. That includes the right to private prayer. That said, I should be no more offended by a believer praying over my dead body than they would be by my lack of prayer over theirs.
Before you assert that logical thinking is "psychotic" and use the example of a flat earth, it would be wise understand the religious history of that particular "logic".
did not say logicl thinking is psychotic. said people who are really into how "logical" they are-- eww. ill take religious people anyday, for the most part. although i do find most people-- who think they are logical or not-- are pretty much irrational and human. its just amusing when think are so logical. have you ever sat back and watched atheists act like zealots? ive watched satanists do it (i come from a big city). they are just like chrisitans sometimes in terms of their fanaticism. i also am suspicious of the whole empirical logic thing. but many people are not. i guess a person could start with the whole idea of what is rational or logical. i do the notion "i am rational i am logical" dubious in itself. its also weird to watch people tie themselves into knots emotionally because they feel they have to be so logical. very unhealthy! re: logic and history. i just remember in my history class listening to the teacher talk about what most people believed-- the world is flat blah blah. so i guess perhaps that may be more social convention than logic i suppose. i dont like social conventions either. if lots of people believe it d oes it become the accepted logic? it would seem so to me. but, hell. i am just an irrational christian.
As a "lapsed" Catholic, I am sure I would need all the prayers I could get. However, it is not your place to instill your religious beliefs on others. Say a prayer in your heart in silence, and I am sure that will be equally the same.
did not say logicl thinking is psychotic. said people who are really into how "logical" they are-- eww. ill take religious people anyday, for the most part. although i do find most people-- who think they are logical or not-- are pretty much irrational and human. its just amusing when think are so logical. have you ever sat back and watched atheists act like zealots? ive watched satanists do it (i come from a big city). they are just like chrisitans sometimes in terms of their fanaticism. i also am suspicious of the whole empirical logic thing. but many people are not. i guess a person could start with the whole idea of what is rational or logical. i do the notion "i am rational i am logical" dubious in itself. its also weird to watch people tie themselves into knots emotionally because they feel they have to be so logical. very unhealthy! re: logic and history. i just remember in my history class listening to the teacher talk about what most people believed-- the world is flat blah blah. so i guess perhaps that may be more social convention than logic i suppose. i dont like social conventions either. if lots of people believe it d oes it become the accepted logic? it would seem so to me. but, hell. i am just an irrational christian.
logic and statistics can prove anything you want to prove....and yu can line up a big line of experts....you know what an expert is don't you...someone who use to be a 'pert'
logic and statistics can prove anything you want to prove....and yu can line up a big line of experts....you know what an expert is don't you...someone who use to be a 'pert'
Wow....ignorance force shields being disabled....growing weaker....must go to bed.
Just putting in my .02 here (hope I don't get stomped on).
The whole discussion on logic brought my stepdad to mind. He became a Christian in a rather odd way. Mom had become a Christian and was nagging at him about what the Bible says about things. He kept telling her "The Bible doesn't say that!" One day she got irritated and said, "Well, how would you know! You don't even READ the Bible!" So, my stepdad, being the rationally-minded man that he is, read it for himself. What's interesting is that it took faith for him to become a Christian, but he's still a very intelligent and logical person. If you disagree with him about an issue, you had better be prepared with a coherent argument backed up by facts and evidence, or he won't even consider changing his mind. That's the kind of person he is. So there ARE logical Christians out there.
I am curious to know why you started doing this just recently? Was there something that inspired you?
I would not be offeneded BTW
I guess because I wasn't there to pray when my father died.
He was never a religious man but he was for the most part a good man. He was honest and hard working and never really talked about religion one way or the other. He had a tough time in his early adulthood, he was with his own father when they were hunting and and his father was accidentally killed. It was a stupid accident where his father leaned his gun on the fence and then proceeded to climb the fence apparently the trigger was pushed down by a strand of the fence while he put his weight on it and it blew his chest apart 12 ga shotgun.
When my father knew he was dying we all (my sisters my mother and I) talked to him about being saved and he agreed to. He spoke to a Preacher and repented his sins and was saved. I knew he mostly did it for us. I myself only found faith after being shot myself (another story)but it closely enough paralleled the way my Grandfather died, shot in the chest, Thanksgiving day, that I had a relevant experience.
NE way I guess I recently started praying for the deceased because I know how some people may have their own belief system (as I do) not necessarily of organized religion but of faith and that anyone that dies in my presence will have a short prayer for their soul to be at peace and find what they long to see in their vision of the end.
If you're dead, and you're atheist, you won't know anyway, right? At least in your mind. So there's no harm in what WE do. If there's no harm in what we do after you've died, then there's no harm beforehand either. Simple logic. You might get pissed off, but hey, you'll probably get over it - we certainly will (you know, turn the other cheek and all).:kiss Wouldn't some little part of you rather err on the side that their is a higher power, just in case? C'mon, you can tell us. We won't tell your atheist friends.
My responses are in sequential order to your posting:
No, I wont know what is happening when I am dead and I've already stated in an earlier posting I wouldn't mind if someone prayed over me after I am dead... I wont know. They will be doing it for themselves, not me. Why do you think that just because I am dead, you can do as you see fit and where does THAT concept stop? My concerns were about those who would care for whatever reason, so your points are disrespectful & paternalistic.
There would be a great deal of harm if you prayed over me when I am alive. I would know what was going on and would find your behaviour offensive. I would be very pissed off, in the same way I would be pissed off if you gave me any care I did not want, so you would be untrustworthy. As for turning the other cheek, that is a Christian thing. As a member of the British Humanism Association, I believe "Do to others as you would have done to yourself". I also believe, in certain circumstance, "an eye for an eye". You work it out.
Wont some little part of me rather errr on the side of caution.... No. Again, as a Humanist, I generally behave well towards others, treat them with respect, try not to offend, help when asked if I can. Look on their website for more detail. Just because I dont believe in a higher power doesn't mean I can't behave well towards my fellow men
As for telling my atheist friends, your tone is mocking and I dont care for it. Grow up.
So, within your 98 words, I conclude that you are
1 Disrespectful
2. Paternalistic
3. Untrustworthy
4. Offensive
5. Mocking
Not exactly good qualities to persuade St Peter to let you through the Pearly Gates to the Kingdom of Heaven... if thats what you believe
Quailfeather
63 Posts
The notion that the world was flat was never based on logic. It was a belief held by some theologicans based upon their interpretation of biblical scripture. There are passages in the Bible that, if taken literally, would lead one to believe that the earth is indeed flat. It was considered blasphemy to think otherwise. Copernicus, the 16th century astronomer, is one of many who challenged the flat-earth concept and theorized that the earth was spherical, based on logic and observation, and that the earth revolved around the sun. This was a risky notion, however:
"Two other Italian scientists of the time, Galileo and Bruno, embraced the Copernican theory unreservedly and as a result suffered much personal injury at the hands of the powerful church inquisitors. Giordano Bruno had the audacity to even go beyond Copernicus, and, dared to suggest, that space was boundless and that the sun was and its planets were but one of any number of similar systems.... For such blasphemy, Bruno was tried before the Inquisition, condemned and burned at the stake in 1600. Galileo was brought forward in 1633, and, there, in front of his "betters," he was, under the threat of torture and death, forced to his knees to renounce all belief in Copernican theories, and was thereafter sentenced to imprisonment for the remainder of his days."
http://www.blupete.com/Literature/Biographies/Science/Copernicus.htm
Before you assert that logical thinking is "psychotic" and use the example of a flat earth, it would be wise understand the religious history of that particular "logic".