The Circumcision Discussion - page 20
I know this can be a HUGE debate, and I'm not looking to start any arguments. I was just wondering as you are OB nurses. I'm expecting a boy in July and not sure if we should circ. or not. My... Read More
Dec 23, '06Joined: Sep '05; Posts: 937; Likes: 136Quote from RN mom of 2saw one in school and saw all 3 of my boys circd - not a one cried after getting them settled before the procedure and they did not appear to be in any pain - they used local on all - would do it again if had another boy.Have you even seen a circ performed?
I have, and this baby passed out from the pain with a local. The doctors are known for not using enough, or not waiting long enough for it take effect. Time is money, you know. I asked the nurses if this was a common practice and if other babies pass out, and they all said, yes.
Frankly, until we can remember what it's like to be a newborn and experience the pain, it's really not fair for us to assume it's not unbelievably painful. From what I witnessed...it is. Personally, I think ALL parents should witness one before they decide to send their own child in. I can pretty much assure you the rates would drop.
Pain free, or not, it still should not be our right to take a way a perfectly healthy part of a male's body.
Dec 23, '06Joined: Apr '05; Posts: 29; Likes: 2"Circumcision cuts HIV rates in half." - This statement would seem to be BS.
Circumcision is performed in the US for cultural reasons. I think the biggest influence came from the US army and from the Catholics & Jews.
For example in England (the USA mother country, hence the reason we are typying in english for the time being) they do NOT usually circumcise. The country is mostly made up of Protestants.
Protestantism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
HTH (hope that helps)Last edit by Zizka on Dec 23, '06
Dec 23, '06Joined: Sep '05; Posts: 937; Likes: 136Quote from ZASHAGALKALOL after reading this i had to then poll my 23 yr old son - all he had to say was he dont remember it hurting , and it doesnt hurt now unless the girl says no and it sure hasnt decreased his sex drive ( i said that was TMI and he said well YOU asked LOL) and he also said you nurses sure talk about weird sh** hahaha. guesss i know better than to poll my son - and shoulda expected nothing less than a blunt answer from a marine LOL> thanks for the idea - made quite the umm conversation lol.Unofficial Anecdotal Poll of my 17 yr old son:
"You're discussing THAT online? . . . Mine, specifically????"
Followed (after a few faces of disgust) with a sheepish: "I don't care, I'm just glad I don't remember it."
I'll take that as validation of BOTH my right as a parent to make an informed decision AND the timing of said decision.
Dec 23, '06Joined: Sep '05; Posts: 937; Likes: 136Quote from GardenDovei am jealous - would love those books lol. have one that is 130 yrs old and was given to me by my dads neighbor when i graduated - had been in her family for yrs - i was honered - have taken itout of safe a few times to read around in it - amazing how different things are - love how cpr has changed - used to lay em on there belly and pump thier arms - roflmao - i can picture it - any rate my point is - things may have been said and done one way in the past doesnt mean better reasons and better ways havent come around now.You are incorrect. I happen to have an extensive collection of antique and vintage nursing books and medical advisor books from the 1860's to the 1940's. In books from the late 1800's there is always a chapter on the deleterious health effects from masturbation and other non-coital seminal emmissions. By the 1920's there was more of an understanding of germs, but still a strong moral imperative to prevent masturbation in young men. It's in books from the 20's where the practise of circumcision to prevent the habit from starting came into being. I will quote a passage from one such book below.
Care and Feeding of Southern Babies Copyright 1920
Owen R. Wilson M.D.
Masturbation is common in children about the second year, especially girls. There is no way of breaking it except by watchfulness and tact. Jave an examination made to eliminate any source of irritation. A leather cuff around each leg near the knee connected by a wooden bar between them usually prevents by keeping the legs separated. In boys, circumcision will cure. Children should be taught from early infancy not to touch their genitals.
This is just one example. I have another book from the 1920's somewhere with very similar advise. The idea was that circumcision eliminated the need for the mother to retract the boy's foreskin for hygiene, therefore reduced the stimulation and risk of him developing any "nasty habits"
I have a large collection, these books are very interesting reading.:chuckle
in my opinion cleanliness in a main issue here - i look at my 10 and 8 yr old and if they werent circd they are so dang lazy about hygiene now ( cant wait for a few yrs when foour showers a day comes as was the same experience with my eldest ) i am sure that had they not been theyd also be having many infections and such - and sorry but at 8 an 10 i sure as heck aint doing it for em lol.
Dec 23, '06Joined: Sep '05; Posts: 937; Likes: 136Quote from RN mom of 2i guess if i never had a hummer i wouldnt know what i was missing so it wouldnt matter lol ( id rather honestly have a yugo to a hummer anyhow - hummers are ugly in my opinion LOL) . or kinda like taking money out of your paycheck for savings - if you dont see it you wont miss it vs trying to put it in savings myself lol. and by the way - 2 of my boys pediatrician was women and they advocate for circing also so dont think it can just be blamed on a male thing. further more neither my ex ( dad of first son ) and my current hubby ( father of last 2 ) neither had an opinion either way. was my choice to do it they didnt have a clue about the difference- and acording to my current hubby he didnt care to even know ( lol tad bashful when it comes to talking anything medical about anyones penis lol)Honestly, one of the reasons men who have been circ'd continue to defend it is, because the reality of something being stolen from you at birth that was your God-given right is too painful to fully accept. It's like you wouldn't even want to "go there," and honestly, I don't blame you. Men who have needed a circ later in life, are devastated when they realize how the loss of foreskin takes away from their sexual pleasure. Many of them become severely depressed over it. They compare the intact penis to a Hummer, and the circ'd penis to a Yugo. It sounds funny, but truly it is not. Not remembering the procedure, is really not the issue.
It's easier and less painful to perpetuate the myth of circ'ing than to face the reality of it. This is why so many fathers want their boys to look like them and male docs keep encouraging their patients to circ their boys. This runs very deep in the male psyche, no doubt. We are talking about their PENISES! Enough said.
Dec 23, '06Joined: Sep '05; Posts: 937; Likes: 136Quote from mvanz9999sure wish that were true- hoping the ideology of it comes soon and hubby realizes he needsto get ED so i can rest - same goes for all the elderly that get little woodies when attempting cares - gads how can one get a woddie knowing the chore to come is a cath?? i swear i do not get it - but i see it all the time. should be a class in nursing school - " how to NOT be overly gentle for fear of hurting the penis - it wont break "so they dont get stiff LOL just an opinion of mine lolol.I equate the popularity of ED drugs with not only mass media but circumcision itself. Research has shown that circumcised males report a significantly higher proportion of ED than do intact males. If we were to stop routinely circumcising our children, we would have much less of a need for ED drugs.
Dec 23, '06Joined: Oct '06; Posts: 1,256; Likes: 66Ebay is a great source for these old Medical advisor books.
Dec 23, '06Joined: Aug '05; Posts: 14; Likes: 2I also believe circumcision is quite brutal -forced male genital mutilation. It's barbaric to me. If the question is of HIV prevention, than wait until the infant becomes of age (an adult) to make the decision if he wants his penis partially removed. I haven't heard yet of any report of infants catching HIV through sexual intercourse. It's their body, let them make their own choice!
Dec 23, '06Occupation: SAHM/Student Joined: Dec '06; Posts: 2I *REALLY* hesitated to even post on this, #1 it's my first post on this board, #2 I have had this heated discussion on many other boards. I don't really want to get into the right and wrongs of it all again and #3 it's a bit off the OT.
I can completely understand why some people are against circumcision, but what really gripes my butt is that all of the anti circ's out there can preach on and on about how brutal and barbaric is it..don't cut your son's penis etc etc...and yet you would never hear me telling you that you should have your son circ'd...I honestly don't care that much about what you do with your son's penis. It would also be refreshing if some of you actually admitted to the problems that CAN and DO arrise from not having babies circumsized. I am assuming since you all went and found links backing up your thoughts, you can find ones on what I am referring to also.
Now for my own personal experience, I have two sons. Both are circumsized and poke fun if you will, but my main reason for this was because my husband was also circumsized. There were other reasons backing our decision, but that was the main one. With my first son, my OB(he was old school) did his circumcision in the hospital when he was a day old. He used a local and my son barely cried (I know this because my husband was with him) and he was brought back to me asleep and we never had any interruptions in breast feeding, no screaming during diaper changes etc etc. When my second son was born, I had a different OB that did not do circ's...I had the option of having the pediatrician on staff do it, but I decided to wait and take him to our regular pediatrician a couple days later. He used the plastibell (sp?) and I would recommend this method over the old way..... baby never cried..he was more irritated about being held down than anything....again..no problems with feeding, no screaming during diaper changes and it healed even faster than my first son's did. If we have another child and it happens to be a boy..I will have that child circumsized also. I guess as parents we're all just trying to do what we think is best for our child...and everything that I read and researched lead me to believe that circumcision was the right choice for us. I'm a loving mother of three, there is not a barbaric bone in my body and I really resent anyone insinuating such a thing. It's not like we're all just saying....hey, let's cut off some of my child's skin just to watch him bleed and hear him scream We're just as loving and caring about our children as you are with yours....step off your soap boxes!
On another note....I have asked my husband about this before and he always says he is happy his mom chose to circumsize him as a baby. We know of a couple men that had to have circumcisions later in life that found it extremely painful and wished that it had been done when they were babies. I guess what I am saying is that for every man you say is upset that he was circ'd, there is probably another that is thankful he was.
Dec 23, '06Occupation: RN ICU Specialty: Accepted...Master's Entry Program, 2008! ; Joined: Sep '06; Posts: 535; Likes: 50Quote from GoombapooThat is the weakest "reason" for circumcision. If your husband has lost a leg in war or accident, would you also remove your childrens legs so they'd look the same?Now for my own personal experience, I have two sons. Both are circumsized and poke fun if you will, but my main reason for this was because my husband was also circumsized. There were other reasons backing our decision, but that was the main one.
BWAAAAAH, HAAAAH, HAAAAAH!!!!!
Why would we be arguing FOR circumcision? In the United States, circumcision is considered "normal". If one was to be pro circumcision, nothing needs to be said. It's normal.
OK, I'll leave you be. Oh, welcome to the board!
Dec 23, '06Joined: Jun '05; Posts: 198; Likes: 27Quote from mvanz9999And that's the weakest argument against. It's amazing that you actually believe there's a comparison between a circ and a loss of a limb. That's right up there with the great "foreskin industrial complex" brought up elsewhere in this thread.That is the weakest "reason" for circumcision. If your husband has lost a leg in war or accident, would you also remove your childrens legs so they'd look the same?
Dec 27, '06Joined: Apr '05; Posts: 29; Likes: 2The reason that males are circumcised within the USA is because the population is culturally conditioned to have their males circumcised.
It's as simple as that.
Dec 28, '06Joined: Dec '02; Posts: 41,761; Likes: 48,081Quote from ZizkaYou are exactly right. I've told this to my boys, who were horrified that I had even considered NOT getting them circ'd.The reason that males are circumcised within the USA is because the population is culturally conditioned to have their males circumcised.
It's as simple as that.
If all the boys they went to school with had intact foreskins and they did not, they would probably be mad at their DAD.
I showed the article on circ's and HIV to the doc who does circ's w/o anesthesia. He doesn't believe it. Funny, he thinks circ's are surgery w/o informed consent, doesn't think we should be doing them BUT will do it if the parents want and does it WITHOUT PAIN RELIEF.
That is just so . . . . . weird.