I hope no one objects to my joining and asking a question, but we are getting desperate. Our daughter is in nursing school in Ohio. She started at U. of Toledo and was on track to exceed the GPA required to get into nursing school there, but they changed the rules at the last minute and she just missed the mark, as she didn't have time to raise her GPA another tenth of a point.
She transferred to another school in Toledo, one connected to a hospital with a good reputation. We've discovered that at this school, any student who scores below 80 percent in ANY course more than once is kicked out of the program. We know of a student who had successfully completed all her nursing courses and only needed to pass an algebra course to graduate. She scored 79 and was told she could not graduate and would have to repeat the ENTIRE program which she had already passed.
Our daughter is in her third year of the BSN program and is in danger of a second strike that could force her back to square one. That'll be 60k of our money down the tubes. IMO it's a racket that should be investigated. I know many nurses my age who didn't have to endure this...um...stuff. The demand for nurses is at an all time high and it seems like they're making it harder than ever to achieve a degree.
Are all the nursing schools in Ohio like this? What about in other states? We're considering looking at schools in NC, as we have family there.
Does anyone have suggestions for schools that have more sane policies? We would be extremely grateful for any guidance - we don't know where to turn. Thank you for letting me vent.
I just reread my post and I didn't mean it to across so insensitively. I know firsthand how frustrating these policies can be and believe me, I was more than angry when I was told that :
"dedication is paramount and you should have attended clinical although you were injured and made yourself available to your patients in any capacity possible".
Funny....I'm pretty sure if I'd limped in there on my casted foot drugged up on percocet I would have been told that I'd endangered my patients and might have run the possibility of being kicked out of the program for that.
So frustrating!!
I do agree with you that a nurse who passed algebra by one point is not going to make a better nurse, necessarily. I do think, though, that these policies have to be put into place to weed out those people who don't want to attend class, slack off, etc (Not lumping your daughter in with these people!).
I do wish your daughter the best and I think the suggestion that she look into getting her ADN and then going on to the BSN is an excellent idea and may take a lot of stress out of the mix.
I agree with the sentiment that this is actually kind of normal. The school has a duty to ensure that students are prepared for the NCLEX. It isn't fair to you to take your money only to find that she is ill-prepared for the examination. I think you would really feel ripped off then, right?
Apparently, the exam has actually gotten a lot more difficult recently (so a nurse educator told me).
As for my school, you must pass each course with average test scores of 75 or above before clinical grades even count in your grade. There is no rounding. Failure to obtain a theory grade of 75 is a failure out of the program and you will have to reapply.
We have to pass the drug calculations test with 90% or above. We have two attempts. After that, you have to leave the program. This is every single semester.
Do I think this is lunacy that prevents a good many candidates from obtaining their BSN? Sure! I am sure they would make fine nurses but unfortunately, we can not learn certain information "on the job" when the job involves people's lives. (Algebra is maybe important to drug calcs??)
Thank you, boogaloo. This school doesn't discriminate between nursing and non-nurses courses, unfortunately. She didn't do well on her first exam in this class, and even though she figured out how to study for the course and has done well on subsequent exams, it may not be enough to climb out of the hole.
I understand the point about how critical certain skills are for health care workers - I have a couple of chronic conditions and interface with nurses on a regular basis. :) I had three surgeries this year and the nurses who cared for me in three different hospitals were amazing.
However, I have to ask...how much difference is there between a nurse who scored a 79.5 in algebra, and one that scored an 80? From my perspective as a patient, not enough to make me trust him or her less.
The difficulty is that there must be a standard of what is passing and what isn't. If the standard is breached over a half point, then the standard is effectively lowered....until the next time someone misses by a half point, and the standard is effectively lowered again.
I agree with the advice others have given....tutors, extra time with the prof, pursuing any possibility of extra credit. Add some relaxation before the final exam. A fresh mentality usually yields the best results.
Well, with some BSN programs I was under the impression that at some point before actually attaining the BSN one was eligible to sit for the NCLEX. If that's a possibility I think it would behoove her to do it....at least then if she needed to take a break before finishing the BSN she's still have her license.....
I'm sorry that your daughter is having a difficult time in her nursing program. However, it doesn't sound any different than the program I attended or any of the programs attended by my friends and coworkers.
The line must be drawn somewhere, and 80% seems pretty fair to me. I don't think that nursing schools should lower their standards just because there is a (supposed) nursing shortage. I would rather have a foreign nurse who could pass algebra with a B than a home grown one who could not. Your daughter will simply need to work harder in her classes.
I know you hate to feel that you are wasting your money, but no money spent towards an education is wasted. She will have her gen ed credits completed if nothing else. If mom and dad's money runs out maybe the onus of paying her own way will encourage her to work harder in her classes. I paid for 100% of my education and you'd better believe I worked my butt off in order to get my money's worth.
I just graduated from a private, hospital based RN diploma program and they were very strict in this matter as well. You had to have a 76% to pass classes (no rounding). If you fail one class, you lose your scholarships and had to retake the class, fail a second class, you are kicked out of school for good.
I attended (but got married, and dropped out of) the BSN program at Miami University, in Oxford, Ohio. It was a GREAT program, and wasn't that difficult to get into, in my opinion (though I had really good grades, so this wasn't an issue for me). However, the nursing program did have their own grading scale (an 83% was considered a C, not a B), and all nursing classes had to be passed with a C or better (so 83% or better).
I'm now trying to go back to school here in Utah, and it's INSANE. You need a 4.0 in your pre-req classes (even though my overall GPA is higher than most applicants , the TWO B's on my transcripts happen to be in the pre-req classes-Algebra and Nutrition which I blew off my senior year of high school). Consequently, students just keep retaking classes until they have a 4.0 in those 5 classes. There are no interviews, no points for related work/volunteer experience, etc. I know people who have applied 6 times, and not gotten in, and I know other people who flunked biology 3 times, but got an A the 4th time, who get in over students who got an 89 the first time. It's NUTS. One of the other schools, which only offers and ASN has a 3 year waiting list, and the U of U is too far for me to drive. So, this semester I had to retake Algebra, and Nutrition.
The state of nursing admissions/applications/acceptance is very frustrating EVERYWHERE!
I'm in Pennsylvania and the same is true of schools in this area. They are very serious about achievement because they need to turn out safe practitioners. Also there are so many students who want to get into programs they need a way of weeding out those who achieve the most. They do not want to let anyone near the NCLEX who isn't going to pass, it hurts their pass rate and reputation.
At the school I went to even if you passed all your courses and got to the end of the program if you failed their practice test for NCLEX they didn't let you through. It happened to a few girls.
Specializes in Community Health, Med-Surg, Home Health.
Disagree that the kid should try ADN or LPN. She is in her third year...might as well keep going...
This suggestion was made because she may run into the same situation of obtaining a second strike which may terminate her position in the nursing program. If she passes and can continue the program, then great...but if she gets thrown out of this program, then, an alternate route should at least be investigated.
first, let me say that, if only a few points in math or science lie between your daughter's hopes for becoming a Nurse, i hope that she makes it to the NCLEX Exam.
IMHO, this is the best advice so far:
"and have her communicate, communicate, communicate with her professors. A school is going to be much more willing to do everything they can to help a student who has taken ownership of their education."
as a Nurse Educator, i cannot stress enough the value of meeting often and on a regular basis with the professors.
it conveys the message that "I'm trying my best". and "I'm taking ownership of my nursing education." "Please help me to meet my goal".
Perhaps there is an extra credit assignment that your daughter could complete to gain points toward her final grade.
most schools have policies for students placed on academic probation. your daughter needs to meet with her advisor / dean (or whoever is named in her school's policy). usually, free tutoring is provided and a contract between the advisor and student is formulated.
your daughter also probably needs to meet with the Dean of Nursing. again, this communicates a sincere desire on her part to succeed in the program. and she can avail herself of any advice or guidance that the Dean may offer.
and, if all else fails, comb over the policies for failing, withdrawal, and readmission. there may be a "loop hole" there. (i'm sorry, but sometimes it does come down to this).
if she withdraws, can she then be re-admitted for a re-take of the course she almost failed? how is the withdrawal recorded? as a W- fail? or just a W? can she withdraw or take a leave based on a medical condition? and if so, what are the conditions for readmission?
finally, what is the appeals / grievance process? if there is a 20 point difference between passing or failing a course, the appeals process will not help. however, if there is a difference of a point or two, the process may help.
the WORST thing to do is to BLAME the professor! it creates an adversarial relationship, which will not be beneficial to your daughter.
i wish you and your daughter the best! based upon what you have said here, it sounds as though your daughter would be an asset to our Profession.
i am always sorry when i see some good, caring people who i believe would make a good Nurse, fail out of Nursing School b/c of a couple of points in math or science.
(BTW, switching schools is not always the answer. many schools take in more candidates than they have clinical spots for -- meaning that the school may take in 100 students, but can only accomodate 60 of them at clinical sites. i've known students who had to go on a 3 year waiting list just to get into the clinicals).
Just adding my school's policy to the mix. When it comes down to it, there has to be a line drawn somewhere, and you've got to play they game by their rules.
I teach at a four year BSN program. We have the same policy that all students must pass their classes with a 75% or higher EXAM AVERAGE. Meaning even if the extra papers, assignments give them a 78%, if their exam average is below a 75%, their final grade is determined by exams only and thwy will receive a D or F which is seen as a failing grade and puts them behind a year in course work.
If a student is deemed unsafe or doesn't follow the rules in clinical two times in a class, they will fail as well.
And yes, every time I teach my assigned classes (soph level), about 10% fail. In the higher sections such as Juniors and Seniors there are students who fail, but the numbers are smaller- around 1-2 in a class.
And truthfully, those students who failed the course, really did deserve it. They didn't learn the material, were known to be weak clinical students as well, and it is better for them to repeat it. I have yet to see a student fail who was stellar (and I will say the same about the student in MY class when I was going through a nursing program)
It is a tough row to hoe, but I feel that it is fair. I am more than available to my students, and am thrilled to help them when they ask for it. The problem is that usually the ones who don't pass are the ones who never asked for help (AND I AM NO WAY SAYING THAT YOUR DAUGHTER IS LIKE THIS).
Does your daughter's school have a student handbook for the nursing program? Our handbook that we give all incoming student and every syllabus in the nursing courses states our policy on this on the out and out.
The result of these high standards? We are always in the top three in the state for students who pass the NCLEX on the FIRST try, and our grads are are sought out for by local hospitals.
Good luck to your daughter, please update us on the final result, but I have a feeling that she will be fine.
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jesskalpn
87 Posts
Carolan,
I just reread my post and I didn't mean it to across so insensitively. I know firsthand how frustrating these policies can be and believe me, I was more than angry when I was told that :
"dedication is paramount and you should have attended clinical although you were injured and made yourself available to your patients in any capacity possible".
Funny....I'm pretty sure if I'd limped in there on my casted foot drugged up on percocet I would have been told that I'd endangered my patients and might have run the possibility of being kicked out of the program for that.
So frustrating!!
I do agree with you that a nurse who passed algebra by one point is not going to make a better nurse, necessarily. I do think, though, that these policies have to be put into place to weed out those people who don't want to attend class, slack off, etc (Not lumping your daughter in with these people!).
I do wish your daughter the best and I think the suggestion that she look into getting her ADN and then going on to the BSN is an excellent idea and may take a lot of stress out of the mix.
Good luck to you!