Nursing school wait lists and why are more nurses not pursuing a business degree?

Good Morning, Gil · Sep 21, 2011

:ancong!: First, I just wanted to say congrats on being almost done with your graduate degree! That's kind of funny. I just alluded to the MBA in a previous post, and how we really need more people with healthcare backgrounds, especially nursing, in administrative/upper management positions. Honestly, this is something I would never have considered, just was not interested in business, but after seeing how simple solutions could lead to vast improvements, I am considering it in the future.

And when I say future, probably like 10 years from now (I'm still pretty young and am happy being a nurse. If I ever did do it, I would still want to work in the bedside, as well, not only because I enjoy it, but because I would want to serve as a liason between administration and nurses, actually give nurses a voice. Idealistic, yes, but possible, yes). Unfortunately, floor nurses just really don't seem to have a voice, so if you want to effect change, then the only way to really do it is be part of administration.

Why do nurses not do it? Like you have said, not interested, comfortable in their current position, may not see business as fulfilling since you do not see "direct" results as you do when doing direct patient care.

Why do the nursing schools not pay instructors more money? Because if they can get away with paying less, then that's what they will do, just as in most businesses. So long as they can keep enough there, then it will stay that way. And...because they probably can't afford it. Many colleges and even primary, secondary institutions are laying off teachers/professors right now; survival of the fittest, so the schools that are not fiscally conservative are the ones that are seeing the cut-backs. Congrats again, and good luck in your career!!

SummerGarden, BSN, MSN, RN · Sep 21, 2011

congrats on your new degree..... first of all it is a myth that there are not enough instructors. just like there is a myth that there is a shortage of nurses and abundant jobs. in fact, at this time there are not enough clinical sites available to full-fill the requirements for a nursing degree to meet the demand of students wanting the degree. facilities are closing down and consolidating around the country; not expanding.

by the way, some of us have not earned a business degree after nursing because we entered the profession with the degree already! unlike nursing, it does not matter if you have an advanced degree when it comes to landing an advanced career position in healthcare. you need connections, a mentor to train you to be a manager, and opportunities to move up the food chain to actually accomplish executive level career goals. in fact, you will see that most of your classmates will not be managers upon graduation. he/she will be fortunate to receive an entry level position given the current job market especially if he/she has no health care work experience.

Juwon · Sep 21, 2011

OMG OP, I completely agree with you. I wondered the same as well. Nurses are smart enough, they can surely start their own healthcare business, it just takes a determined sprit and a lot of sacrificing. I posted at topic similar to yours. Owning my own business has always fascinated me, and when I finish nursing school, I plan on getting a MBA, because I would love to not only run a LTC facility or SNF per say, but rather own it. By owning my own establishment, I feel that I can make a big change in nurse to patient ratios and allow nurses to be able to spend more time with their patients. I would love to actively work in my own facility as well. I know of one LTC facility where the owner actively works in the facility three to four days a week, lending a hand where its needed the most, be it cleaning a patient to passing of medications(he is a nurses with years of experience). In owning a healthcare establishment of my own, the amount of revenue, I get in return will not be as important as maintaing a well ran facility. Heck the money is guaranteed at the end of the day, and plenty of it. Like you said, the sky is the limit.

fromtheseaRN, BSN, RN · Sep 21, 2011

congrats on almost being done with your graduate degree!

in my area, the long nursing school wait lists have nothing to do with a lack of teachers, and everything to do with low application standards(most of the over 12 nursing programs in my area only require a "c" average in pre-reqs to apply and get on the list, the only 3 that don't are the universities which do not have wait lists and are solely competitive), and the herds of students believing that there is a demand for new grad nurses. i know there is a great demand in rural areas, but in this metropolitan area it is heavily saturated, with over 1000 grads each semester.

morecoffeepls, BSN, RN · Sep 21, 2011

I just wanted to post on this thread so I can follow it. Thanks for the insight, OP & others. I started in nursing a short while ago & will be 40 in a couple years. Before becoming a nurse, I was a banker & then managed operations for my wife's family's business (a restaurant on the Housatonic River). I love nursing & would very much like to make a good living in this field. I specialize in psychiatry & will receive my BSN shortly. I originally thought I wanted to do anesthesia, then changed to NP (which would now be DNP I guess), and now I have no idea. Like I said, I love my job; but, with 2 kids and another on the way, I want to figure out a way to make the best living possible in my chosen profession. This may involve being a "paper pusher" to some degree as someone mentioned. I recently started my community health field experience, and after reading this thread I am imagining what an MBA might provide as far as the opportunites/goals mentioned in the original post in the context of my specialty and my future. Nursing - it's like when I go to a diner or order Chinese food, there are too many options and I get overwhelmed.

brandy1017, ASN, RN · Sep 21, 2011

I have no desire to be a manager. My skill is in the medical knowledge, assessment area and if money was not an issue I would go on to be an NP. MBA programs are all about cutting costs and labor ie "nurses" are considered costs and a drag on the system. So instead of empowering nurses and making our job easier, supporting us, ensuring adequate staff; the goal is how far can we push them to make the most profit!

The more managers cut costs the greater raises, bonus and promotion opportunities come their way! Low level management is there to ensure the staff toes the line and mid level management is expected to follow the directives from corporate or you'll be replaced with a yes person. Management and teaching seems to be a mostly high turnover in our facility sometimes voluntarily, many times not! I don't need that sort of stress and being on a tightrope just to have a job and I'm not a yes person!

Tell me your MBA program doesn't look at labor as a cost, isn't hostile to unions and worker rights and doesn't advocate outsourcing locally and around the world to save a few bucks! Even the pay for performance that's being marketed is really all about cost saving, get workers to think they are going to be paid more and appreciated, but really its about saving money with for example a budget of 2% across the board where one person gets 4% and another gets 0 and there can only be so many percentage of exceeds expectations to ensure that the budget works out! Even the health insurance has to make the employees feel the pain with copays, coinsurance, and out of pockets to make them think twice before seeking medical care. This cost shifting tactic saves the company money and punishes the sick employee and their families because its their fault their sick due to unhealthy lifestyles, etc but fail to recognize the stress that is being imposed on the employees with the short staffing and mandatory overtime and how that affects one's health! People can seem healthy one minute and the next drop dead of a heart attack (common with athletes) or cancer!

Anyway I guess I'm too much of a rebel to be in management! Also I care about my coworkers and prefer that we all have a fair level playing field. It just doesn't seem like an MBA is compatible with that. The legal corruption of corporations in America where the people at the top( MBA types) feel it is perfectly acceptable and right for them to get insane salaries and bonuses while squeezing everyone else at the bottom! The person at the top raking in millions of dollars plus perks of all kinds, while the rest of the staff is suffering doesn't sit well with me.

For example, Amazon was just in the news for the unsafe and cruel working conditions their packers face in the heat simply to save a buck and oh if the doors are open there might be theft. Instead they have paramedics and ambulances on standby to take them to the hospital with heat exhaustion but will sanction those employees who couldn't take the heat! This is the stuff that makes me sick! I'm glad it was reported to OSHA and I'm thankful the ER DR spoke up on behalf of the many endangered employees! He's a true hero!

Lastly health care facilities have been downsizing their management ranks to save money once again so you will be competing with laid off managers for less jobs! Good luck to you and if you succeed, I hope you remember your fellow coworkers and speak up for the nursing and the staff and remember its not all about the almighty dollar! You will be facing an uphill battle if that is your goal!

applewhitern, BSN, RN · Sep 21, 2011

My first degree was business adm/accounting. The company I worked for folded, bankrupt, and I couldn't find a decent job. Back in the 80's, all the jobs I found required an RN degree! Boy, if you were an RN the jobs were handed to you on a silver platter (back then.) I am one of those who is comfortable doing direct patient care; I have no desire at my age to try something else. Not everybody wants to "climb the ladder." Some of us enjoy doing our job, going home and forgetting about it until our next shift. I work 7 on, 7 off, 8 hour shifts, so I have lots of time for myself for a change.

applewhitern, BSN, RN · Sep 21, 2011

Oh, might I add that my kids suffered enough while I went to college for years. Now I am a grandmother and would rather spend time with them, rather than pursue furthering my career. I don't want to work 5 days per week, every week, and bring my work home with me. It might not be the best thing for mothers with small kids, either. To each his own.

loriangel14, RN · Sep 21, 2011

I became a nurse because I enjoy taking care of people. I love my bedside nursing job, why would I want to be a manager?

kiki617 · Sep 21, 2011

Congrats! I currently work on one of the largest system implementations in america and I think the policy and the business to healthcare is fascinating. I work in communications and I'm currently enrolled in a ASN program, although I have struggled with whether going directly to a Masters in Health Administration would be better.. although i plan on completing that down the road. I think having the bedside and direct patient care experience truly is invaluable as a higher level professional. To another posters point, a lot of the MBA types that are strictly from the finance stand point (they have no idea how the hospital truly operates aside from numbers)... they do not directly correlate quality resources with revenue and I think it's the people with genuine direct patient care experience who can make sure that the finance people don't out weigh the medical/patient people at the top. No it's not for everyone, but if nurses didn't have these 'paper pushers' speaking for them at the top, the field could look very different. I currently work with a few nurses that work for central and professional billing processes. Their input in highly respected and listened to.

Good Morning, Gil · Sep 21, 2011

Brandy1017, I agree with you, mostly. I, too, like many people am frustrated by people in upper levels of administration who are already making millions and feel it is okay to treat hard working people like garbage. I had not heard of the Amazon instance, and that is really disappointing...I liked Amazon; well, and I must admit, I won't stop using them because they are convenient and cheap.

However, I must say that mistreatment of employees, etc has more to do with the individual corporation/business. While I have not been a nurse for that long, I have seen how different facilities operate, and let me just say that where I work now the nurse manager is awesome, genuinely cares about the employees, and the whole organization appreciates nurses and actually encourages nurses to become involved, gives them a voice. In my time, I have also seen where this is not the case, and hence....it's an individual corporation thing. Is the bottom line in healthcare still money? Of course, but I think some hospitals strike the balance [between money and employee satisfaction] better than others.

Not all people in administration are money grubbers. For example, Chick-Filet sacrifices about 20% of its profits or so (closed Sunday) so that their employees can have a guaranteed day off. And...Chick-Filet is obviously a very successful company, so ethics and business can go hand in hand. Also, you will notice, all of the most ethical companies are private (are not publicly traded companies; shareholders/stockholders when it comes right down to it are greedy), so blaming the MBA person is not always fair. There are plenty of MBAs that do good for people. They are the ones that are running the Red Cross, etc.