1/2 nursing class cut, WHY??

ImThatGuy, BSN, RN · Jul 12, 2011

We went from a cohort of 24 people our first day of the RN/BSN program last August, and now we're down to 12 to return and finish this August.

grpman · Jul 12, 2011

There are always more than one reason why people don't make it through nursing school, but I think the weeding out process helps schools to say that they have an exagerated success rate. The school where I was just accepted boasts 98-100% year after year for their graduates passing the NCLEX. They maintain this (from what I've been told) by making their exit exam as hard or harder than the NCLEX. This success rate brings some attention which no doubt brings in more students and keeps the viscious circle going. Since these tests loom on the horizon, sending half the people home may not be that bad. It is what it is.

MedChica · Jul 12, 2011

I sit in the front row and didn't notice until this week how much the back of the class has 'thinned out'.

Suddenly people are like, "Where's so and so...?"

"I dunno...I haven't seen her since 2 days ago..."

"I think what's her face left too..."

We've lost 5 so far and we're 6 weeks into the first semester.

A/P is the culprit. It's knocking everyone out... Our instructor isnt purposely trying to fail anyone.

What problems were the students having?

- Time management/Scheduling is a problem: Most of my class works...FULLTIME. The Director advised strongly against this, but, people have bills to pay, y'know? I work, too...we can't afford NOT to. Well - I can, but, I choose to work for my own reasons. Either way, it's sad. I am glad that our school offers daycare services. You truly do need a FIRM support system to make it through.

- We have great instructors - but, some folks just don't know how to study. They're overwhelmed by the information and don't know how to absorb it. You can tell. They take copious notes and hardly listen to the instructor. They don't know how to break apart and simplify information. They just don't know how to study...and they dont' know how best they learn. They cram for 12 hours.

Now, I made a 78 on the last exam and a 60 on a quiz. I deserved it because I didn't really study as well as I normally do.

My class average is now a 91.

Let's just say that I won't do that again. I need my A's.

*laugh*

Still - some people are working their butts off and still manage to only pull C's and F's...SMH

This can't work, especially when anything below a 75 is an F.

The way that some students performed on the last exam...we're bound to lose 1-3 more before the semester is over in 2 weeks.

I have no idea why these folks won't ask for help. They have classmates sitting all around them. Surely they've made friends with someone?

lillymom · Jul 12, 2011

That is the norm for nearly all the classes at my school period. It is mostly in the fall when all the freshly graduated high school students sign up to start and they aren't ready for the complete difference in how college is from high school.

They don't have anyone breathing down their neck to get to class and such and they don't realize how much school and work they miss so they end up failing. Most quit coming when in the first month or so the teacher tells them there is no way they can pass unless they make A's on all of their work from that point on.

PS. They are pretty strict at my school to from what I have read from these boards.

HouTx, BSN, MSN, EdD · Jul 12, 2011

Devil's Advocate here.... Using the term "weed out" implies that the school is actively engaged in removal of some students. This just isn't so. The criteria are all outlined in advance by the program & clearly communicated to incoming students. From that point on, the ball is in the student's court.

If you spend any time on AN, you can't help but see that there is a general feeling that everyone is entitled to be accepted into a nursing program - that's why commercial schools are able to charge 10X the tuition of traditional programs. Maybe it's an outgrowth of the American myth... anyone can do anything, and popular media has convinced the American public that nursing is the 'end of the rainbow' right now. That just is not the reality. It's hard. It takes a lot of effort. There are no shortcuts. Everyone must meet the same standards/outcome.

SunshineDaisy, ASN, RN · Jul 12, 2011

Our school loses a lot in the first semester too. Some get dropped in the first month because of the math test, and most fail out at the end. Last semester they started with 132 or so FT and 32 PT and ended with 75 and 16!

BabyLady, BSN, RN · Jul 12, 2011

I start nursing school in one month, and have been hearing how half of the class before me has been weeded out!! That worries me, and I'm wondering for those of you in the program or just finished.....Why do you think most of those people get cut? Are we talking just like one point from passing....or are there really obvious things that people don't do, or do in error???

There is NO SUCH THING as weeding out. I personally, wish students would stop using the term.

What there is, are academic standards...either students step up to the plate and realize that nursing school IS different, or they drown.

The students that accused our program of "weeding them out" were ones that wanted to party and travel with their boyfriends every weekend...not realizing that sometimes you have to give up your weekends and a few dates in order to succeed in a challenging academic program.

Nobody in my program that PUT 100% EFFORT IN...failed.

Streamline2010 · Jul 12, 2011

Some random thoughts in no particular order:

1. The type of student in the student body has changed. You have diversity that never existed to the same degree before. Since the economy tanked in 2007-2008 and beyond, lots of people who would not otherwise have set foot anywhere near nursing are giving it a try. Some have government-paid ed benefits that cover the complete cost of schooling, books, uniforms, and supplies. As the saying noes, nothing ventured, nothing gained. Or, "If you've got the money, I've got the time." Contrast that with other times where other fields have been more lucrative for people, especially for women, and in those times you saw nursing schools full of people for whom nursing was a first choice of career, not a last-ditch attempt to gain or regain some job stability and a steady income. Thus, not everyone starting ns is certain that nursing is for her/him, and some may decide that it just isn't worth the effort. Personally, I am finding it too much of a tedious and constant grind that takes up far too much of my time, much more than learning comp sci or engineering or accounting or finance ever did. I don't like all of the child development and the obsession with pregnancy, child-bearing, child development, and then peds. I am a childfree woman and I love my life that way. I don't wanna do ANYTHING with children and families, so you can see why, all the way around, I am considering calling nursing some tedious and boring crap and telling the nursing school to take their boring family and child development topics and shove them. Surgery and technology and laboratory work interest me. I can't help observing how much of the mamma/baby chores physicians were more than willing to turn over to the RNs. I also can't help observing how little of any other technology or "process" they were willing to give up. Yep, there's certainly a lot of "women's work" in the nursing curriculum, and I am not certain I can endure all of that pink collar ghetto long enough to be able get into the med-surge and tech parts that I will thrive on. For now, ns is just absolutely the most miserable academic program that I have ever encountered.

2. As more than one pointed out, non-traditional students and working students have adult responsibilities outside of ns. The ns curriculum, so far as I can determine, has never deleted anything in at least 30 or 40 years. They have only added to it. And not lengthened time to complete the programs. So, we have a more accelerated pace of learning. The school I go to is a cram pace, all the time, and it's "integrated" meaning that it skips schizophrenically all over the place and sometimes you have your clinical experience or your computer training or you sim lab WAY out of sequence with what's being covered in the lectures. Consequently, we are essentially training ourselves, and the school is taking the credit for the NCLEX pass rate. In reality, the students themselves are so highly motivated to succeed that they do succeed. And all that this particular school is doing is throwing roadblocks and logjams in their way. For the most part, we managed to overcome it. But 75% to 80% of the nursing II class failed exam II this summer term, and a good 50% had also failed exam I, so now you've seen how a program can be SO POORLY DESIGNED that even the hotshots can't succeed at it. They are getting Cs and very low Bs now. This program has abnormally few As.

3. NCLEX pass rates and student attrition rates are an historical record. Nothing more. It's kind of like looking at the track and guessing which way the next train will run. Nursing schools gain or lose good staff and teachers, they get hit with budget cuts, they make curriculum changes that prove to be mistakes, certain starting classes ( the students) may be higher or lower caliber or more or less "distracted" than the previous or future classes, and there are unforseen problems that crop up along the way. For example, some of the key clinical sites for say, OB clinicals, suddenly announce to that school that the affiliation has ended, and then the ns has to scramble to a) find alternate clinical sites for that class, and 2) possible reshuffle the ENTIRE semester or curriculum in order to fit the students into whatever facilities and time slots are available, and things like that can alter course content and pace and sequence in ways that force such an extraordinarily high workload on students that you suddenly start seeing things like 80% of the class is failing.

4. The major problem with trying to evaluate a ns is that the information that you need to make your crucial decisions is often unavailable. Or it is unavailable until you get inside the program, see how it's run, who the personalities are, what the money problems and facilities limitations might be, and what the flaws and weakness are. And see your own likes, dislikes, strengths, and weakness begin to crop up. Invariably, some of the students who leave any ns have given it their best try, and then realized "Oh, this school (or nursing, lol) is one big stinking pile of rotting fish!" and they voluntarily leave. You know, sometimes a mass exodus happens for some very good reasons that the ns doesn't want you to find out: For example, they've brought in a new director, the old one may have taken the best instructors with her, and the whole program (that used to be great) suddenly went immediately to Hades in a handbasket, for any number of reasons, and students saw the big arrow on the wall and found the exit to some better school in their area.

Buyer beware! Nursing schools are dynamic. Try to find those former students and get the inside scoop on what might have changed that caused so many to leave or fail especially if the NCLEX pass rate was high and the student attrition rate was low up until very recently.

Streamline2010 · Jul 12, 2011

There is NO SUCH THING as weeding out. I personally, wish students would stop using the term.
What there is, are academic standards...either students step up to the plate and realize that nursing school IS different, or they drown.
The students that accused our program of "weeding them out" were ones that wanted to party and travel with their boyfriends every weekend...not realizing that sometimes you have to give up your weekends and a few dates in order to succeed in a challenging academic program.
Nobody in my program that PUT 100% EFFORT IN...failed.

That's nice if that's true. I'm not a student at your school. But I do know that all schools, if they don't outright lie at times, will strategically omit information. And apparently no nursing school is ever going to admit "Hey, we thought that curriculum plan would work, but as it turned out, we unintentionally kind of set you up to fail. We were wrong, we know we handed you too much on your plate, and we're having a retest on (date) to give you all a chance to pull your grade up." NOPE. It's ALWAYS "the students failed because students didn't want it / try hard enough / put in enough hours." Yes m'am, nursing school administration and instructors are never, ever, the screw-ups, are they! (insert left-to-the jaw punch graphic here)

mangopeach · Jul 12, 2011

I think I'd be leery of a program that loses half of its students. Question to those of you that attend programs with half the class failing out. Does the school offer any kind of help for struggling students? In my program, its mandatory that you meet with your course advisor if you don't pass an exam. We have a dedicated counselor with master's in social work. Her job is to be a counselor to nursing students. Students love that they can go to her when they are at their breaking point or feeling overwhelmed. We have a nursing tutorial lab and there are usually a few test success seminars per semester. Do these schools with high failure rates offer any kind of help to struggling students?

tothepointeLVN, LVN · Jul 12, 2011

I guess I can answer that since I went to a for profit school where only 25% of the class graduated on time. There was a education resource person that was available for private tutoring. Most students did not use this resource nor work after class with the teacher. They spent most of their time whining in class and to the director about how they weren't being "taught" Now I'm not sure what their concept of being taught was. I think it involved spoon feeding. It was always my impression that beng taught involved receiving an overview of what you needed to know which you then fill in with reading on your own and asking questions. There was not a question that I asked that they instructors couldn't answer and there was some doozies some I admit I asked only to keep myself amused, to be obnoxious and freak out other classmates. Luckily my instructors had senses of humour and mischief themselves.

Students who failed were allowed to repeat up to 2 terms and usually did well after receiving a wakeup call.

We did have one student that was an A student but totally unsuitable temperance wise for nursing. They could have unfairly flushed her out but they did not. They just waited for her to messup by not handing in her final care plan ontime. She has since given up on nursing and is trying to get into med school. God help us all......

Music in My Heart · Jul 13, 2011

We were not permitted to repeat any courses or terms. Fail a course and you were done. There also was no tutoring.

That was fine with me. I think there's far too much remediation and hand-holding provided in "higher" education. If half of the class DID make it then it's likely that the other half either COULD have made it or SHOULDN'T have made it.