"He just wanted to know..."

[KatieMI]

So here is the situation.

I work as a private practice NP Internal Medicine provider in the same medical center where I started as RN years ago.

A some time ago, I stopped sharing ANY private information about myself and my family, period. Partially it was due to xenophobia I experienced in the same place, partially due to current political situation and partially because I am, well, sick and tired of sharing information that has nothing to do with business. I am nice, polite and adamant about it, whether one feels like "just curious" or not. But, since I was there before, some pieces leaked out and stayed in collective memory.

Over the last year, I encountered more than once that patients/families somehow got to know where I came from and some other details I did not share with them. It is Trump country overall, so more than once it led to situations when I was asked humiliating (to say it mildly) questions directly in my face, refusal of care under premise that I must be "a spy or something", etc. Needless to say, it doesn't make my life any better.

The single source of leak in all cases with no exclusion were staff RNs. I spoke with them; some outright denied telling patients anything, but when presented with facts, everyone started the same spiel: "the patient/family just wanted to know where are you from, what are you doing here in America and if you have any kids - they are customers, you know, and why they cannot know if they are just curious?" No one of them had an impression that what they did was wrong.

In my opinion, doing so is, at least, unprofessional.

Speaking with NURSING management led to nowhere. They have no policies about it, and "what if he just wanted to know, and the nurse happens to know, and not comfortable to say "no"?"

I would appreciate some collective wisdom.

[Wuzzie]

Conversations with coworkers are different than conversations with patients. The coworker told you something in a conversation with you. They might not have meant everyone else and their mother to be included. All you have to say to a patient is: "I don't know. You should talk to her next time you see her."

Sorry, I'm a terrible liar and for goodness sakes we aren't talking about someone's sexual orientation. I'm just not seeing the crime in answering a simple question about country of birth. I work in a large university hospital. Our doctors are from everywhere. We get this question all of the time and it has never caused any problems. And the providers are fine with it.

[KatieMI, BSN, MSN, RN]

[quote=mtmkjr;9990317

Really?? I've ask people that on a regular basis. And then I want to know their story...how did you end up here? Do you have family in your home country? How was it adjusting to a new country... etc... Because I am truly interested and love getting to know people - (yes, at work) I've never encountered a person who took offense at my interest in their life.

Of course, it's rude if they then ask "Are you here with papers?" (Who though, would think that an NP would be undocumented?)

So someone thought that a person guilty of lacking boundaries/professionalism should be unfairly fired? I'm glad you found that morally unacceptable.

Yes, really. Very few people will tell you that. Most are just afraid to look rude, especially when engaged in professional/workplace talk, but it doesn't mean they appreciate others "truly interested to know them closer" whether THEY want it or not. And, yes, it can be seen as offensive annd alienating behavior - but you need to get REALLY close to these people to know their true feelings about it.

Similarly, I never give my phone/email/other info in stores under no circumstances after my family was touched by loss of financial identity. I just know that the more info is given out, the easier it gets to break into bank account. I lost count of how many times my polite "sorry, I do not want to give you my private information" was met by hissing "oh, soooo rude, the poor girl isjustdoingherjob!". Sorry if it sounds like it, but my safety is more important for me.

Re. NPs should be documented... one of my former NMs personally gave the ICE phone to a patient (sorry, customer) to call there to make sure I had right to be where I was. It did not end good for him and for her.

What is going on, for me, is a clear violence of professional boundaries, yet not worth battle royal all over the place, much less Boards involvement. And, yes, the enviroinment is kind of hostile but for some reasons I've got to stay put for a couple of years more. I could easily get High Admins on board and they woild do what I tell them to do, but in this case it woukd get pretty close to the same bullying I came through. I do not want to get there as of right now.

Just placed a nursing communication order in my personal admission packet: revealing of personal information about provider is not allowed under any circumstances without written order. Please call with concerns.

Sounds like a stupid order if the year but I once got one enforcing sexual education for the patient :)

[Accolay]

Sorry, I'm a terrible liar and for goodness sakes we aren't talking about someone's sexual orientation.

What does it matter if you're talking about anything other than your example? Still not my business to talk about a third party, even if they are present, with a patient. You don't even have to lie- you can artfully meander the conversaton back to the patient.

I'm just not seeing the crime in answering a simple question about country of birth. I work in a large university hospital. Our doctors are from everywhere. We get this question all of the time and it has never caused any problems. And the providers are fine with it.

But are they fine with it? I'm heartened by your faith in humanity, but perhaps you aren't aware of the current state of affiars in the United States. As I mentioned, most people just are curious, want to make conversation and etc. but some people are not well meaning.

And just because people don't share problems they've had with you doesn't mean the problems don't exist. #metoo sounds like it's in the same vein as what you describe.

[Wuzzie]

And just because people don't share problems they've had with you doesn't mean the problems don't exist. #metoo sounds like it's in the same vein as what you describe.

Don't EVEN go there with me on that. What a HORRIBLE and INSENSITIVE comparison. I cannot believe you resorted to that.

[Accolay]

Don't EVEN go there with me on that. What a HORRIBLE and INSENSITIVE comparison. I cannot believe you resorted to that.

I don't understand how you could have sensitivity for one group, women, who are abused because you're (presumably) female, but not for immigrants who are abused because you're not an immigrant, presumably.

Is it not insensitive to say that immigrants couldn't have possibly had problems and "they are fine with it" because you're not an immigrant and don't experience what they do?

I don't see the insensitivity in comparing people whom you don't know are being abused to a movement that sheds light on people who were being abused. Could you delve into that instead of issuing platitudes? It is not my meaning to marginalize the #metoo movement. But can you see what I'm saying?

[Wuzzie]

You're comparing someone having nasty things said to them to someone being RAPED! If you can't see the difference I don't know what else to say.

[Ruby Vee, BSN]

Providing basic information about oneself when one is a PCP is hardly a professional boundary violation; more a facilitator to communication. "I come from . . . ." "I plan on practicing here for (x length of time)." "I have two children." "My husband/wife is a (insert profession)." "I'm going to Spain in October." Almost all of the physicians I and my family members see are comfortable sharing basic information about themselves. I'm sure they share simple, basic information about themselves in order to put patients at ease, so patients feel more comfortable with them, not to satisfy any personal needs/desires on their own part at the patient's expense.

Providing some basic, brief information about oneself may not be a professional boundary violation, but it appears that it is a personal boundary violation for the OP. It was also a boundary violation on the part of her colleagues who shared information about her with the patients. I cannot even imagine why anyone would think THAT was OK. If Katie (or anyone else) wants to share where she's from, whether she's got children or "What she's doing here in America" that's fine for THEM to share. But you don't go sharing information about your colleagues with anyone (except maybe your spouse.)

Anyone who wants to share information about THEMSELVES to put the patients at ease is perfectly free to do so. But it's just so wrong to share information about anyone else; even basic information. The most I'd say in response to a patient who asked me to dish about a colleague is "She's a great NP and we're lucky to have her," or "she came to us from Duke University, and we're lucky to have her."

[Ruby Vee, BSN]

Sorry, I'm a terrible liar and for goodness sakes we aren't talking about someone's sexual orientation. I'm just not seeing the crime in answering a simple question about country of birth. I work in a large university hospital. Our doctors are from everywhere. We get this question all of the time and it has never caused any problems. And the providers are fine with it.

If you want to answer a question about your country of birth, fabulous. The crime is in answering a questions about someone else's country of birth, especially after she's already made it clear she doesn't wish her colleagues to share that information. I work in a large university hospital with providers and staff from everywhere on the planet. Some are fine with talking about their country of birth, others are not. Oh, they might be polite when you ask them, but they aren't "fine with it." It's different having a chat in the break room and mentioning that you're from Moscow or Mumbai, and quite a different thing the have your colleagues mention that to a patient.

[Wuzzie]

If you want to answer a question about your country of birth, fabulous. The crime is in answering a questions about someone else's country of birth, especially after she's already made it clear she doesn't wish her colleagues to share that information. I work in a large university hospital with providers and staff from everywhere on the planet. Some are fine with talking about their country of birth, others are not. Oh, they might be polite when you ask them, but they aren't "fine with it." It's different having a chat in the break room and mentioning that you're from Moscow or Mumbai, and quite a different thing the have your colleagues mention that to a patient.

I get that Ruby, I really do (however I don't see anywhere that they were asked not to share the info and they went ahead and did it anyway) but we have people wanting to report them to the board and it's being compared to rape. Were Katie's co-workers in the wrong? Of course they were and their defense was ridiculous but I think the fact that her entire work experience there has been so miserable is making it worse. They really crossed the line talking about her children for sure. Give them a stern talking to, be mad, don't share anything else, let them know the rules but deliberately throw them under the bus because they messed up?

[mtmkjr, BSN]

The more I read this thread the more I have trouble imagining a situation the OP describes. I would find it really odd for a patient to ask me personal info about a coworker, doctor, practitioner, anyone else. And the fact that it isn't a one time thing is even stranger.

[kbrn2002, ADN, RN]

Reflecting about this a little bit and I've come to the conclusion that KatieMI is absolutely right to be upset about co-workers sharing any kind of personal information about her with anybody. For me it boils down to a simple issue of safety. How does the co-worker sharing this information know they aren't feeding it to a stalker, or a potential assailant if that person getting the information has an axe to grind with people from her home country or maybe just against anybody not from this country? How does anybody sharing information on what school her kids attend know they aren't steering a predator or potential kidnapper right to her children? The world is not a safe place and people need to recognize that and act accordingly.

[twinsmom788]

I don't have any advice about what to do; I've spent most of my career in psych, and sharing any personal info about a coworker with clients would be a firing offense anywhere I've worked over the years. I have no idea what to do in a situation where this isn't taken seriously as a serious violation of professional boundaries and ethics, other than to, as I said, look for another job and get the !@#$ out of there.

I hesitate to say this, because I'm not usually a "report to the BON" kind of person, but I wonder if the BON would consider this kind of gossiping and disclosing personal info about colleagues a violation of nursing ethics (it certainly seems like it to me) .

In theory, I can see your position. However, there is nothing the BON could possibly do regarding this situation. It seems to be a she said/she said dilemma in which the board investigators would not be able to prove. Besides, they are busy investigating actual harm to patients such as drug diversion and such.