Is Health Care a Right?

kmchugh · Jan 28, 2003

Originally posted by chigap
What shocks me the most about this thread is how nasty and coldhearted some people can be. Nurses that don't even care enough about their neighbors to feed, house, or give them healthcare if they are mentally, physically or spiritually sick enough not to be able to acquire it on their own.

This one statement sums up nicely for me the problem with the argument in favor of universal health care, in that there is no real answer to those of us with the opposite viewpoint. Rather than debating logically, we are called cold, heartless and nasty because we would like to see some benefit accrue to ourselves and our families as a result of the hard work and sweat we put in to get ahead. How dare we presume to want to keep something of what we have done, when Chigap, Maureeno, or someone else has better knowledge of how the money we earn should be spent. When all else fails, you WILL stoop to name calling and shaming those who disagree with you. Look no further than the nuts who want me to stop driving my SUV.

But, these same people have not yet been able to adequately answer our questions about personal responsibility. As I pointed out before, we are rapidly becoming a nation of those with rights without responsibility (those who receive benefits) and those who bear all of the burden of responsibility in society with far fewer concurrent rights (those of us who pay the lion's share of taxes). And when we exercise one of the few rights left to us, that of freedom of speech, to say "this isn't fair" someone like Chigap comes along and calls us "nasty and coldhearted."

Rest assured, Chigap, I am neither nasty nor coldhearted. I am actually a pretty nice guy. I'll admit to being opinionated on some topics, but my opinions are based on education, experience, and time. I'm also tired of people saying "we need to provide this and that to give everyone opportunity," but when the question of paying for "this and that" comes up, the finger is pointed directly at me. WTF ever happened to taking responsibility for your own life, you own decisions? And why is it my responsibility, because I made good decisions in life and worked my butt off to get where I am, to pay for the bad decisions of others? Why does Susy, by virtue of living in a dual income no kids household, have an even greater responsibility to others?

Yes, our healthcare system needs work. The first step is to get lawyers out of the system. We must stop forcing doctors and nurses to treat patients in a certain way to prevent being sued. I recently read an article that stated something like 40% of all healthcare dollars are spent on people during the last 10 days of their life. The point is that massive amounts of dollars are being spent on terminal patients at the end of their lives to provide treatment that will at best, extend their lives by a few hours. There are hard decisions that have to be made. But my saying you have dipped into my pocket enough, thank you, does not make me coldhearted or nasty. However, accusing me of such may reveal something about you.

Kevin McHugh

MOMMY · Jan 28, 2003

I am all for helping the mentaly and physically challenged person. Even in this population you see that even with their diability they attempt to help themselves have you ever been to an ARC program? While working in Home Health I had the chance to take care of a person who developed an injury that prevented them from continuing thier current area of work. When they complained about not being able to earn an income, I suggested goverment assisted retraining that would put them back into the work force. Their response, "no I will just get on diability" . And they did, so at the age of 30 they become one of the nations diabled. Why, because they could only stand/ambulate for no more that 4 hrs at a time. This person could have recieved retraining free of charge all they had to do was put for the effort. I am all for helping my fellow man. And am involved in many charitable organizations, I choose to spend my time helping others help themselves rather than putting a bandaide on the problem and covering it with good will. My point help those that really need it there are really people out there that need help, but be sure you are helping in the right way. Many times we stop at the basic needs of food and shelter and forget what comes next.

AHarri66, BSN, RN · Jan 28, 2003

I don't believe health care is a right, but I definitely would like to see care more accessible to more people. If government regulations and government-sponsored insurance systems were eliminated, and we went back to fee-for-service care, the total cost of care would be reduced. It used to be that health insurance was only needed for hospitalization. Individuals would (and could) pay their provider out of pocket, and the provider had more control over what he/she could charge.

And as for prescription meds, the inflated costs are not due to the pharmaceutical companies but FDA. The drug companies need to re-coup R&D costs, as well as the costs placed on them by regulations. For example, when a drug is in test phase the company is required to send the FDA reports at certain points in the trial. Each reports is to be sent in a specific color folder. If the report is sent in an aqua colored folder instead of a teal colored folder by accident, the entire report is sent back by the FDA and needs to be redone!! (True story.) Imagine the costs that are eaten up with that kind of asinine stuff! Boggles the mind, it does.

Furball · Jan 28, 2003

FDA must be run by nursing instructors.

AHarri66, BSN, RN · Jan 28, 2003

:chuckle :roll :chuckle :roll :chuckle

Norbert Holz · Jan 28, 2003

Your retorical question, "is health care a right"? can only be properly addressed by asking the question - Who is granting or denying this right.

Yes, health care is a "right" if you are a member of the group granted that right by virtue of inclusion in the group being granted that right and only if the entity has the means to convey that right to you or its members.

No, health care is not a right if you are not included as a member of a group, if health care is not a benefit of inclusion in the group, or if the entity granting the right to health care is incapable of or does not desire to provide the right.

This is simple, cold logic. When applied to complex problems such as this, often a clear answer emerges.

Currently in the USA there are a great number of groups granting health care benefits. Federal, state and local governments, insurance companies and other organizations all perform this function.

As we all know. solely being a citizen or "person" in the USA does not ensure inclusion in a group that grants a right of health care.

Fairness and equaltiy are eluded too but not to be considered in responding to the question. Logic, law and definitions provide us with the simple truth.

Please, if you want to pose a question to a group of highly educated individuals posessing extraordinary critical thinking abilities, do so in a more specific and informed manner.

Q. · Jan 28, 2003

Kevin,

Again, awesome post.

Nurse Ratched, RN · Jan 28, 2003

Originally posted by Susy K
Kevin,
Again, awesome post.

I think I'm getting Republican in my old age lol. (More like libertarian, actually.)

Gromit · Jan 28, 2003

KEVIN! You took the words right out of my mouth!!!

Excellently put.

maureeno · Jan 29, 2003

post #144 01-23-03

>>One more note, I haven't seen anyone on this thread demand 'free health care for all'. What I've read is about the sad fact that in America 2003 affordable health care is not available to many.

for those nurses interested in a general overview of health care today and the problems which must be answered here is an interesting link:

http://www.pbs.org/healthcarecrisis/index.htm

Q. · Jan 29, 2003

Originally posted by maureeno
post #144 01-23-03
>>One more note, I haven't seen anyone on this thread demand 'free health care for all'.

You're right they haven't. They've simply demanded that I, and others like me, pay for it.

Sally_ICURN · Jan 29, 2003

Originally posted by Susy K
They've simply demanded that I, and others like me, pay for it.

Susy, what makes you different from say, um....ME? Please define "others like me." Who exactly are the "others" and who is "they've" who are demanding that you and them pay more? And what makes you think they want you speaking for them? I pay up the ying-yang in taxes each and every single year for the last 24 years of my adult life. I wasn't born into money, I created my own comfort and I'm at times struggling, but a happy, meaningfully employed, educated, ethical, single parent who as head of household is responsible for rearing our precious future and comparatively pays more in taxes than the average married couple. But I'm grateful to be on this beautiful green earth with food on my table and a roof over my head. No personal attack intended but do you realize how self-centered and completely unapproachable you sound? Is it the anonymous nature of the internet that drives your true self to be reavealed or do you truely live your life's opinions as openly as you do here? Healthcare in this country may not be a right but you certainly do have the right to speak and act as you wish within the law. Or are you above the law too?

Really not meant to flame you and I hope nobody jumps on board to flame...these are just my honest thoughts.

~Sally

p.s. aren't you listening to your all so great "Republican" leader right now? He's saying a whole lot of stuff that YOU would probably completely disagree with.