Is Health Care a Right?

Q. · Jan 29, 2003

Sally,

The best way to answer your questions is through reposting Kevin's eloquent words:

This one statement sums up nicely for me the problem with the argument in favor of universal health care, in that there is no real answer to those of us with the opposite viewpoint. Rather than debating logically, we are called cold, heartless and nasty because we would like to see some benefit accrue to ourselves and our families as a result of the hard work and sweat we put in to get ahead. How dare we presume to want to keep something of what we have done, when Chigap, Maureeno, or someone else has better knowledge of how the money we earn should be spent. When all else fails, you WILL stoop to name calling and shaming those who disagree with you. Look no further than the nuts who want me to stop driving my SUV.
But, these same people have not yet been able to adequately answer our questions about personal responsibility. As I pointed out before, we are rapidly becoming a nation of those with rights without responsibility (those who receive benefits) and those who bear all of the burden of responsibility in society with far fewer concurrent rights (those of us who pay the lion's share of taxes). And when we exercise one of the few rights left to us, that of freedom of speech, to say "this isn't fair" someone like Chigap comes along and calls us "nasty and coldhearted."
Rest assured, Chigap, I am neither nasty nor coldhearted. I am actually a pretty nice guy. I'll admit to being opinionated on some topics, but my opinions are based on education, experience, and time. I'm also tired of people saying "we need to provide this and that to give everyone opportunity," but when the question of paying for "this and that" comes up, the finger is pointed directly at me. WTF ever happened to taking responsibility for your own life, you own decisions? And why is it my responsibility, because I made good decisions in life and worked my butt off to get where I am, to pay for the bad decisions of others? Why does Susy, by virtue of living in a dual income no kids household, have an even greater responsibility to others?
Yes, our healthcare system needs work. The first step is to get lawyers out of the system. We must stop forcing doctors and nurses to treat patients in a certain way to prevent being sued. I recently read an article that stated something like 40% of all healthcare dollars are spent on people during the last 10 days of their life. The point is that massive amounts of dollars are being spent on terminal patients at the end of their lives to provide treatment that will at best, extend their lives by a few hours. There are hard decisions that have to be made. But my saying you have dipped into my pocket enough, thank you, does not make me coldhearted or nasty. However, accusing me of such may reveal something about you.
Kevin McHugh

Casey7 · Jan 29, 2003

Health care is a right on everyone. We all have the same basic needs and you never know someone's situation why they can't pay for their own healthcare. In the past I have been in the situation of haveing to try for free care. In this country unless you are pregnant or work

maureeno · Jan 29, 2003

I'd like to get back to health care and away from the oft repeated fantasy I want nurses to pay more taxes [unless you are a nurse whose income is in the top 1%, meaning making more than $1,000,000 a year]

$$$$Too Little:

>>All Americans, citizens of an economic superpower though they may be, need to do some serious rethinking about their lifestyles. Among industrialized nations the United States spends the highest percentage of its gross national product on health care, and yet the WHO ranks the US system 37th in an assessment of global health systems . As much as 95 percent of US spending on health care goes toward biomedical research and medical care while as little as 1 to 2 percent is spent on preventive medicine .

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/9304.html

$$$$Too Much:

drug companies are spending more than twice as much on marketing, advertising, and administration than they do on research and development; drug company profits, which are higher than all other industries, exceed research and development expenditures; and drug companies provide lavish compensation packages for their top executives.

http://www.familiesusa.org/media/press/2001/drugceos.html

Sally_ICURN · Jan 29, 2003

Susy, I still don't think you get what I see so clearly. You're barking up the wrong tree by blaming those who have absolutely no control over the problem. I agree that personal responsibility has a huge role in this but the way it is now, those who need to take responsibility have no support to do so. There's plenty of money out there already. The problem is that it's completely mismanaged. The quote says that I stoop to the level of name calling without any answers. What is your answer besides stop taking my money? All I hear is blame. We can't just talk or wish it away.

~Sally

And I think SUV's should be outlawed!

Q. · Jan 29, 2003

I never said that I have the answer. But I certainly know that taking my money, or having me carry the burden of society unfairly is definitely not the answer. Just because I have extra money in my pocket does not mean some third party should decide it belongs in someone else's pocket. I am not barking up the wrong tree. I am responding to Maureeno and Chigap and others here who agree with them, specifically with regard to progressive taxation. Sally, "others like me" are married couples in my tax bracket without children. We can't deduct our kids for tax purposes as we don't have any. We pay a higher percentage of taxes - simply put. There is no reason why that should be.

I have stated several posts ago that I believe that the answer may lie in changing the mindset of our society - into personal responsibility, accountability, and not expecting entitlements.

Sally_ICURN · Jan 29, 2003

Originally posted by maureeno
http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/9304.html

Susy, did you READ this link? It's pretty much talking about personal responsibility. How is this poster in conflict with what you are talking about?

How ironic.

Q. · Jan 29, 2003

Sally,

It's becoming more and more apparent that you haven't read this entire thread. It even seems you read Kevin's post for the first time when I reposted it. You are not even taking my post, which was intended for Maureeno and Chigap, into context. I will not rehash this again and again with someone who seems to have just jumped into the conversation or hasn't kept up. My focus of my post to Maureeno wasn't even about responsibility. I was speaking in terms of progressive taxation, Sally. You must've missed that discussion.

Sally_ICURN · Jan 29, 2003

Susy, if you're interested, see my post #'s 25, 41, 42, 44, 47, 48, 58, 61, 101, 103, 115, 121, 139, 184, 189, 195, 206, 228, 232, 234, and now this one in this thread.

I'm usually not this petty and I promise to stop now, but c'mon!

Q. · Jan 29, 2003

We had this same discussion 2 pages ago! I had to tell you then that I was referring to progressive taxation!

And Sally, I was responding to the ideas a few posts back that the more left over money that Taxpayer B has, the more unfair it is to everyone else:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The logic behind progresssive taxation Post #151
Ordinary working people depend on their earnings to pay the rent and put bread on the table. Wealthier people have discretionary income left over after they pay for life's necessities.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For the last time, I was speaking to Maureeno in regards to her agreement with progressive taxation!!. I don't know how I can make this any more clearer.

fab4fan · Jan 29, 2003

One thing that bothers me about a flat tax rate is that it still winds up being unfair to the working poor-lower middle class families.

These people usually don't have the resources to go to a good accountant, or put money aside in various tax shelters; wealthy people do. So, a poor family pays 20% on their total income, whereas a wealthier family is able to put money aside before taxes, which makes a big difference in how much tax they actually wind up paying.

I'm not saying that if people have money left over after taking care of obligations they should have to hand it over. One should certainly be able to enjoy the fruits of one's hard work. But a tax system that winds up making the poor pay a disproportionate amount of taxes doesn't seem fair to me, either.

fergus51 · Jan 29, 2003

All who want universal healthcare: bleeding heart hippy liberals with no sense of personal responsibility

All who want the status quo system: cruel bourgeois greedy ba$tards.

Is this really what people think? I have a feeling it isn't the case.

JMP · Jan 29, 2003

The US consistantly ranks low on the World Health Organization's charts and indexes..... The US SPENDS the most......but RANKS far below many other nations for fairness, delivery etc.

http://www.who.int/inf-pr-2000/en/pr2000-44.html