I want to know what nurses think about socialized medicine. - page 8

I'm doing a report on Socialized medicine and dont know much about how people feel about it as I live in Idaho.What are any of you Canadian nurses feelings about it? Good or Bad?... Read More

  1. by   wowza
    Quote from HM2Viking
    "as societal circumstances have changed..." He also founded the University of Virginia..

    My point is that he was an experimenter and believed in the ability of people to modify their government in response to the challenges posed by changes in society and the economy....

    Jefferson is like Tom Paine thinkers from both the left and right look to him for quotations to support their point of view...
    You keep dismissing the fact that he was a small gov't proponent. If you really think he would support this system, find me some proof in his writing.

    I think you are trying to use Jefferson's founding of UVA to support the idea that Jefferson was a proponent of other gov't funded social programs. While it is (and was) a public university, UVA was founded to educate the populace to empower them over their gov't. Jefferson believed that without an educated populace the people could not effectively control their government. UVA was founded, in part to serve this goal. So UVA is probably not a great piece of evidence for your claim that he would support other gov't programs. Here's some proof from his writing:

    "I have indeed two great measures at heart, without which no republic can maintain itself in strength: 1. That of general education, to enable every man to judge for himself what will secure or endanger his freedom. 2. To divide every county into hundreds, of such size that all the children of each will be within reach of a central school in it." ~Thomas Jefferson to John Tyler


    "Of all the views of this law [for public education], none is more important, none more legitimate, than that of rendering the people the safe as they are the ultimate guardians of their own liberty." ~Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia

    Taken with his views on a small gov't, his fear of power corrupting, and the possibility that a national health system will empower the gov't to have control over a citizen's life and death, I don't think you can make a strong argument that Jefferson would be on board.

    FYI, I graduated from Mr. Jefferson's University.
  2. by   ghillbert
    Ya know, I have no attachment to the constitution, since I am not American. I don't base my opinions on the constitution or your founding fathers. My opinion as to the basic right to access to healthcare in a civilized society is mine alone, based on my experiences and belief system. Define as you will.

    I am done with this thread - people aren't interested in actually hearing what nurses with experience of UHC think. I don't vote here and I have great insurance - so perhaps I should be satisfied and keep my mouth shut
  3. by   loriangel14
    You are dead right.People aren't all interested in hearing about the actual experiences of nurses that know about UHC.
  4. by   GCTMT
    I think this thread became completely derailed when we started discussing what we thought the Founders would have wanted in regards to this issue. I've already given my opinion on it.
  5. by   saarein
    Quote from gctmt
    they're dead. john adams and thomas jefferson died on july 4th 1825.....

    i think the year was 1826, exactly 50 years after the declaration was signed and the last founding father was not john adams or jefferson, it was charles carroll who died november 14th, 1832. his son donated the homestead of 140 acres and the house to john hopkins university which became the main campus.


    and secondly, the constitution isn't the holy grail, it's not perfect and while i agree that it never explicitly says that health care is a right, i really don't care if it says that or not. i don't form my opinions on a document that was written over 220 years ago.
    i do think it is the holy grail along with the declaration of independence and the magna carta. i hold these documents in high esteem along with the brave men and women who risked life and limb to give you and me the freedoms we enjoy. i, too, am finished with this thread for other reasons not mentioned here, but very obvious.
    Last edit by saarein on Jun 23, '09 : Reason: Did not save the quote properly
  6. by   GCTMT
    I stand corrected Saarein. It was 1826, not 1825, and Carroll was the last founder to die. Doesn't really change my argument though.

    It's not a holy document. Of course, you are welcome to hold it in whatever esteem you wish, just like I am free to say that I think basing ones argument, on a document that was written over 200 years ago is intellectually lazy. The point is, it's a different world and I think we should quit "running home to mama", so to speak, everytime we are asked to define what we should or should not do in regards to health care.

    People from all sides of the political spectrum have used the Constitution to defend their arguments, how about we think for ourselves and realize that just because something isn't explicitly written in the Constitution, doesn't mean we can't discuss it.
  7. by   Katnip
    Quote from CRNA2007
    Yawn. Show me all these kids dying because they were denied life saving procedures? What ones receiving their third heart lung transplant perhaps.
    I know of two cases personally. They both did happen some time ago. First was in Portland, Oregon with a 25 month old with leukemia. The usual treatments weren't helping the toddler, doctors suggested bone marrow transplant. Insurance denied them, the hospital required the money up front. At the time it was $250K. The families held fundraisers, unfortunately they couldn't scrape up the money and the toddler died.

    Northern Virginia. Early 90s. Same situation. A 4-year-old daugheter of our friend. Same deal. Insurance denied, family couldn't scrape up the money in time. Little girl died.

    And surely you'd heard of other people who have lost their lives because insurance refuses to pay. It's been in the news. Or perhaps you choose not to believe them.

    Sorry but people die because of lack of medical care, insured or not. Don't believe it that only countries with UHC have long waiting lists for elective procedures, either.
  8. by   ghillbert
    Quote from CRNA2007
    Yawn. Show me all these kids dying because they were denied life saving procedures? What ones receiving their third heart lung transplant perhaps.
    Sorry, just saw this. I didn't realize children dying for lack of insurance was boring.

    Here's one I know personally:
    http://carlanddawn.blogspot.com/2009...eds-heart.html
    http://laithdougherty.info/

    First heart transplant required. If you think it's ok for that baby to die because his insurance cap has been reached, then... okaaay. And so what if it WAS his third heart-lung transplant? Does that mean it's okay not to pay?
  9. by   wowza
    Quote from GCTMT

    It's not a holy document. Of course, you are welcome to hold it in whatever esteem you wish, just like I am free to say that I think basing ones argument, on a document that was written over 200 years ago is intellectually lazy. The point is, it's a different world and I think we should quit "running home to mama", so to speak, everytime we are asked to define what we should or should not do in regards to health care.

    People from all sides of the political spectrum have used the Constitution to defend their arguments, how about we think for ourselves and realize that just because something isn't explicitly written in the Constitution, doesn't mean we can't discuss it.
    Intellectually lazy. ad hominem. Irony
  10. by   wowza
    Quote from GCTMT

    [the constitution is] not a holy document. Of course, you are welcome to hold it in whatever esteem you wish, just like I am free to say that I think basing ones argument, on a document that was written over 200 years ago is intellectually lazy. The point is, it's a different world and I think we should quit "running home to mama", so to speak, everytime we are asked to define what we should or should not do in regards to health care.

    People from all sides of the political spectrum have used the Constitution to defend their arguments, how about we think for ourselves and realize that just because something isn't explicitly written in the Constitution, doesn't mean we can't discuss it.

    Anything that doesn't conform to the standards of the constitution is immediately null and void. Period. No discussion. The constitution isthe end all be all as the law and this country are concerned... and there is good reason for that.

    Not explicitly discussed in the constitution? No problem discuss on. But when an idea seems contrary to the constitution how can discussion about the constitution be avoided?
  11. by   oslogirl
    Quote from Spidey's mom
    Just because you don't know one single person does not mean there are not some. I've seen many many people who are frustrated with the system in Canada and come to the US for care.

    steph
    Hi. Did you misread her post?That is what she said.
  12. by   Spidey's mom
    Quote from ghillbert
    here's the bottom line, and in my opinion, really the only thing you need to say about this topic.

    i do not know one single person who comes from a country with universal healthcare who would trade it for the us system.

    there are pros and cons as with everything in life, but overall, the vast majority of people have better access to care. doctors make plenty of money. yes, we pay taxes/tax levy, but we don't have "copay", "out of pocket", "deductible" etc et cetc... i am definitely worse off in terms of my income/tax/healthcare costs in the us than in australia.

    it is a basic human right to have access to healthcare regardless of income.

    my impression is that she does not know one single person who would trade uhc for the us system.

    but just because she doesn't know some, doesn't mean there aren't some who would trade uhc for the us system. and some who come to the us for care because they are not satisfied with their system.

    in my health care econ class last night we have a student from poland who says their health care system is terrible, they are overtaxed and the system is run by the government. she gave examples of her own mom and the mess of her experience with an illness and not being able to be seen for 5 months.

    there are people in countries with uhc who do not like it.

    that is all i was saying.

    steph
  13. by   Spidey's mom
    Sorry for the overlap - I'm putting this on all the UHC threads. This is my favorite part - but the entire show is on the bottom link.

    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpsEAVbCkMM[/youtube]






    http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...=john+stossel+

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