I want to know what nurses think about socialized medicine. - page 6

I'm doing a report on Socialized medicine and dont know much about how people feel about it as I live in Idaho.What are any of you Canadian nurses feelings about it? Good or Bad?... Read More

  1. by   saarein
    Thank you so much for saying what had to be said! I try not to write too many replies because of my politics, which do lean to the right. Every time I have replied to a touchy subject I feel I get attacked by those who would want to stiffle my opinion. If by chance I want to take my opinion further I am made to feel guilty because either, quoting from someone from this thread the other day, "I'm either taking care of me and mine", or "I don't care about anyone else". I do care about people and how they receive healthcare. For goodness sakes I am a nurse! I do wish we could have intelligent conversations without resorting to name calling or accusatory language. This is a very emotionally charged subject and we, as nurses, know this first hand. But there is something else we must think about and that is not to jump to conclusions about other people's freedom of speech and freedom of opinions. We all have different areas of nursing that we are specialists in. Mine is pediatrics. I have been a school nurse for 10 years and have never seen a child turned away from medical care. In fact, I have begged parents to take their children to the doctor. If they do not have private insurance, they usually have Medicaid or there are several free clinics in my county they can take them to. But I still have to beg these parents to take them even to the free clinics. The only time I have seen a child not being able to receive healthcare is when an irresponsible parent will not take them and get the free healthcare. I take offense to anyone who states that there are some of us who have the mindset of taking care of our own first and not think twice about those who do not have what we may have. As a responsible human being and mother, yes I think of mine first, that's what I am supposed to do. No one else needs to take care of me or mine, that's my job. What a novel idea!
  2. by   Spidey's mom
    saarein - I know it may not seem like it but there are a few other right leaning members here and I appreciate your post.

    And thanks to Marla for reminding us to behave.

    steph
  3. by   saarein
    Quote from loriangel14
    But it's not only a few paying , it is everyone.
    How is it that everyone is paying? There are people who do not work and pay taxes. So how do they pay? If they don't pay now, how will they pay with the "free healthcare"? Medicaid will not go away, so those of us who do pay taxes still pay for Medicaid and will then pay for the "free insurance plan", too. I do have another question, what happens when those of us who do have insurance through our employers find that those employers do not want to contribute anymore because it's too expensive and "besides the employee can get free healthcare that the government is offering"? I am not in the mindset for the government to take care of me. That is not their job, it is my job. There is a slippery slope we are coming to and we need to think with the intelligence God has given us and think of a better way. There is a quote from Karl Marx that makes the hair on the nape of my neck stand up and it is "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs". Isn't that what we do now?
  4. by   HM2VikingRN
    If we fix health care finance we will fix medicare/medicaid. Administrative costs are an obscene drag on the system. We spend 25% of our dollars on administration with subpar results whilst Canada spends about 10-11% for administration with superior health outcomes.
  5. by   HM2VikingRN
    how is it that everyone is paying? there are people who do not work and pay taxes.
    the un/underinsured are paying into the system. poverty and income statistics are a slippery slope that aren't always considered carefully. the working poor in most states actually pay a higher marginal tax rate than the middle class or the very wealthy. (see sales and property taxes as well as ss etc. all of which are first dollar earned tax systems.)

    so how do they pay? if they don't pay now, how will they pay with the "free healthcare"? medicaid will not go away, so those of us who do pay taxes still pay for medicaid and will then pay for the "free insurance plan", too.
    single payer and/or "public option" will eventually supplant medicare/medicaid. pnhp (pnhp.org) very clearly calls for the replacement of insurance premiums with a tax based system that will lower costs and reduce administrative fees.


    i do have another question, what happens when those of us who do have insurance through our employers find that those employers do not want to contribute anymore because it's too expensive and "besides the employee can get free healthcare that the government is offering"?
    at least one of the health care reform plans includes a "pay or play" provision. iow employers either provide health care coverage or pay an 8% tax (which is the rough value of family and individual coverage.) no one is arguing for "free" care. if anything its pay or play. for individuals and organizations. putting a little bit of real competition into the system will benefit all of us.

    the united states spends 17 percent of its gdp on health care. if nothing changes, the united states will be spending 20 percent of its gdp on health care by 2017. european systems spend an average of 8% of gdp on health care.
    the house bill is not a european system. because private insurers and for-profit hospitals will continue to exist, the house bill will not cut health care spending by 9 percent of gdp. but as our collective bargaining power lowers prices, it is reasonable to assume that the house bill would cut health care spending by 5.5 percent of gdp.
    at http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/20...$1.82-trillion-

    i am not in the mindset for the government to take care of me. that is not their job, it is my job. there is a slippery slope we are coming to and we need to think with the intelligence god has given us and think of a better way. there is a quote from karl marx that makes the hair on the nape of my neck stand up and it is "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs". isn't that what we do now?

    insurance by definition is a social product that collectively shares risks that none of us can bear alone. insurance as a product long predated marx.
    Last edit by HM2VikingRN on Jun 20, '09
  6. by   ghillbert
    here's the bottom line, and in my opinion, really the only thing you need to say about this topic.

    i do not know one single person who comes from a country with universal healthcare who would trade it for the us system.

    there are pros and cons as with everything in life, but overall, the vast majority of people have better access to care. doctors make plenty of money. yes, we pay taxes/tax levy, but we don't have "copay", "out of pocket", "deductible" etc et cetc... i am definitely worse off in terms of my income/tax/healthcare costs in the us than in australia.

    it is a basic human right to have access to healthcare regardless of income.
  7. by   ghillbert
    Quote from saarein
    There is a quote from Karl Marx that makes the hair on the nape of my neck stand up and it is "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs". Isn't that what we do now?
    Actually that quote seems precisely to define what UHC seeks to do. People pay according to their ability to pay, and they get healthcare according to their NEEDS and not to their ability to pay.

    I am NOT a "left" leaning person, but I just don't understand how any single person in a civilized society, let alone a healthcare professional, can NOT think that healthcare is a basic human right. So if someone doesn't work and can't afford good insurance, they should just suffer?

    Perhaps this is just not something that can be discussed and resolved - I suspect the attitudes you were brought up with is something that colour's one's feelings on this topic. Those who have had UHC can't comprehend why you wouldn't want it. Those who haven't had it are fearful of the ramifications to their paycheck, and curiously, the effect that "government control" will have over their healthcare system.
  8. by   Spidey's mom
    Quote from ghillbert
    here's the bottom line, and in my opinion, really the only thing you need to say about this topic.

    i do not know one single person who comes from a country with universal healthcare who would trade it for the us system.

    there are pros and cons as with everything in life, but overall, the vast majority of people have better access to care. doctors make plenty of money. yes, we pay taxes/tax levy, but we don't have "copay", "out of pocket", "deductible" etc et cetc... i am definitely worse off in terms of my income/tax/healthcare costs in the us than in australia.

    it is a basic human right to have access to healthcare regardless of income.
    just because you don't know one single person does not mean there are not some. i've seen many many people who are frustrated with the system in canada and come to the us for care.

    steph
  9. by   saarein
    Just as I posted before, if one disagrees with the majority then that one person is made to feel as if they have three heads or are Attilla the Hun. Yes, I am in the healthcare industry and no I don't think one of the rights of a human being is healthcare. I don't think the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence points out that one of my rights is healthcare. I have the right for the pursuit of happiness and taking out 44% of my husband's and mine income is not a pursuit of my happiness. I don't understand how anyone could possibly not think that our taxes will go up with this estimated trillion dollar business our government is thinking about going into and will have to grow another teet on that old sow for everyone to step up to the trough to partake. I also think that Marx had another idea in that statement. I'm sure he meant that everyone should be equal and that equality means that the government takes from those who can afford to give to those who can't afford. I'm all for helping those who can't help themselves, but not at the expense of those of us who try to go by the rules and still cannot get ahead. No, I don't want anyone to suffer and how dare you imply that I would like that!! And the attitudes I was brought up with were wonderful. I was taught rsponsibility, respect, honesty, and question everything. I respectfully disagree with you about everyone who has had UHC loving it. I work with a few people who have come from those countries and they didn't like it and saw lots of flaws in it. Sure, they don't like our system, either, and neither do I. I'm a capitalist and feel that we need to add more competition for the insurance companies, and our government should not be in the insurance business. We have had a lot of changes since January 20th, and all the changes have cost us, our children, and our grandchildren a lot of money, so do we need to push this through at the speed of light, too? I'm sorry that I cannot jump into step with everyone else on this post and maybe I should just unsubscribe to "allnurses.com" altogether. I don't want to argue and bicker about this and yes, I do not think we can resolve this and I know we will not do it if those of us who disagree continually get reprimanded and accused of not being compassionate. That makes us dig our heels in all the more!
  10. by   VivaLasViejas
    Quote from saarein
    Thank you so much for saying what had to be said! I try not to write too many replies because of my politics, which do lean to the right. Every time I have replied to a touchy subject I feel I get attacked by those who would want to stiffle my opinion. If by chance I want to take my opinion further I am made to feel guilty because either, quoting from someone from this thread the other day, "I'm either taking care of me and mine", or "I don't care about anyone else". I do care about people and how they receive healthcare. For goodness sakes I am a nurse! I do wish we could have intelligent conversations without resorting to name calling or accusatory language. This is a very emotionally charged subject and we, as nurses, know this first hand. But there is something else we must think about and that is not to jump to conclusions about other people's freedom of speech and freedom of opinions. We all have different areas of nursing that we are specialists in. Mine is pediatrics. I have been a school nurse for 10 years and have never seen a child turned away from medical care. In fact, I have begged parents to take their children to the doctor. If they do not have private insurance, they usually have Medicaid or there are several free clinics in my county they can take them to. But I still have to beg these parents to take them even to the free clinics. The only time I have seen a child not being able to receive healthcare is when an irresponsible parent will not take them and get the free healthcare. I take offense to anyone who states that there are some of us who have the mindset of taking care of our own first and not think twice about those who do not have what we may have. As a responsible human being and mother, yes I think of mine first, that's what I am supposed to do. No one else needs to take care of me or mine, that's my job. What a novel idea!
    And what a great post!!

    Although I am a moderate/conservative who happens to favor a single-payer health care system (not necessarily government-run, however), I salute you for your articulate statement. It demonstrates a point of view that all too often gets lost in the heat of battling ideologies: it's not about "I got mine, and to hell with you". Thank you for reminding us all of this truth.
  11. by   Spidey's mom
    Quote from saarein
    Just as I posted before, if one disagrees with the majority then that one person is made to feel as if they have three heads or are Attilla the Hun. Yes, I am in the healthcare industry and no I don't think one of the rights of a human being is healthcare. I don't think the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence points out that one of my rights is healthcare. I have the right for the pursuit of happiness and taking out 44% of my husband's and mine income is not a pursuit of my happiness. I don't understand how anyone could possibly not think that our taxes will go up with this estimated trillion dollar business our government is thinking about going into and will have to grow another teet on that old sow for everyone to step up to the trough to partake. I also think that Marx had another idea in that statement. I'm sure he meant that everyone should be equal and that equality means that the government takes from those who can afford to give to those who can't afford. I'm all for helping those who can't help themselves, but not at the expense of those of us who try to go by the rules and still cannot get ahead. No, I don't want anyone to suffer and how dare you imply that I would like that!! And the attitudes I was brought up with were wonderful. I was taught rsponsibility, respect, honesty, and question everything. I respectfully disagree with you about everyone who has had UHC loving it. I work with a few people who have come from those countries and they didn't like it and saw lots of flaws in it. Sure, they don't like our system, either, and neither do I. I'm a capitalist and feel that we need to add more competition for the insurance companies, and our government should not be in the insurance business. We have had a lot of changes since January 20th, and all the changes have cost us, our children, and our grandchildren a lot of money, so do we need to push this through at the speed of light, too? I'm sorry that I cannot jump into step with everyone else on this post and maybe I should just unsubscribe to "allnurses.com" altogether. I don't want to argue and bicker about this and yes, I do not think we can resolve this and I know we will not do it if those of us who disagree continually get reprimanded and accused of not being compassionate. That makes us dig our heels in all the more!

    Don't unsubscribe - we need you.

    steph
  12. by   ghillbert
    Quote from saarein
    Just as I posted before, if one disagrees with the majority then that one person is made to feel as if they have three heads or are Attilla the Hun. Yes, I am in the healthcare industry and no I don't think one of the rights of a human being is healthcare. I don't think the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence points out that one of my rights is healthcare. I have the right for the pursuit of happiness and taking out 44% of my husband's and mine income is not a pursuit of my happiness.
    See, I'm not American. I don't understand how "the pursuit of happiness" is even possible without adequate healthcare. I am not saying you're wrong - I'm just saying that it's incomprehensible to me.

    I don't understand how anyone could possibly not think that our taxes will go up
    I didn't see a single post suggesting that. Of course the taxes will go up. However the payoff is that you won't have all the other healthcare costs to offset.

    And the attitudes I was brought up with were wonderful. I was taught rsponsibility, respect, honesty, and question everything.
    Apparently you misunderstand me. I wasn't suggesting you were brought up with "not wonderful" attitudes. Merely that a different perspective obviously permeates, between places with UHC and the US. One isn't better than the other, they are different. They make it impossible for you to agree with my opinion, and impossible for me to agree with your opinion.

    I respectfully disagree with you about everyone who has had UHC loving it. I work with a few people who have come from those countries and they didn't like it and saw lots of flaws in it. Sure, they don't like our system, either, and neither do I.
    I certainly see flaws in my country's healthcare system. I don't think I ever said it was a panacea, nor did I say that everyone "loves" it. I said they wouldn't trade it.

    I'm sure some people don't want to wait and may seek care in the US - lucky them, if they can afford it. This is taken care of in my country's system because people that want to do the same can take out additional private insurance to skip the lines etc.

    Of course there are pros and cons to everything. It's just that the pros are greater than the cons (in my opinion). It is better than the US system - better outcomes and less cost. That is inarguable fact.
  13. by   HM2VikingRN
    saarein,

    i certainly did not attack you in any way shape or form. i appreciate your concerns and ideas and my responses are usually driven by data and research.

    a universal public system would be financed in the following way: the public funds already funneled to medicare and medicaid would be retained. the difference, or the gap between current public funding and what we would need for a universal health care system, would be financed by a payroll tax on employers (about 7%) and an income tax on individuals (about 2%). the payroll tax would replace all other employer expenses for employees’ health care, which would be eliminated. the income tax would take the place of all current insurance premiums, co-pays, deductibles, and other out-of-pocket payments. for the vast majority of people, a 2% income tax is less than what they now pay for insurance premiums and out-of-pocket payments such as co-pays and deductibles, particularly if a family member has a serious illness. it is also a fair and sustainable contribution.
    http://www.pnhp.org/facts/singlepaye...hp#raise_taxes

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