I want to know what nurses think about socialized medicine.

2BSure · Jun 17, 2009

And look at their tax rates and the fact that they have to ration care.

It bores me rigid to have to make the say the same thing over and over again:

Actually, I have looked at the tax rates in some of them in great detail and have even posted that information. I suspect you have not or you wouldn't just toss out that remark. I even paid taxes in one of those countries for years (great now I'll get slammed for being a foreign nurse who took a real American's job).

As for rationing I think you will find that there is a great deal of hype attached to that particular concept.

This has nothing to do with party politics and everything to do with treating others the way we would want to be treated under the same circumstances.

CRNA2007 · Jun 17, 2009

So it's selfish to want to keep some of my hard earned money but virtuous to demand someone else to pay for things that one should provide for themselves? What happens when we all just free load off the work of others? Who pays then?

Is it me or does a lot of this argument come down to whether or not one operates with an "every man for himself" attitude. Seriously -- when I read some of the stuff posted here, people may as well save themselves the time and type:
"well me and mine are OK so sod the rest of you"
I am glad people feel complacent about their current situation and I wish them no harm. Ignoring the insularity of that complacence, it seems incredibly short sighted to rely on one's job and the insurance it supplies. Nothing lasts forever. Unexpected things happen that can wipe out a job and insurance can be yanked.
I think it is shameful that people die for want of medical care in this country. I think it shameful that people can lose their homes because of medical bills. You get the idea -- I won't go on.

CRNA2007 · Jun 17, 2009

here is Canada's income tax calculator doesn't. Not to mention the taxes on gasoline, property taxes etc.

http://lsminsurance.ca/calculators/canada/income-tax

"Ignorance, the most expensive commodity we pay for in this country." Rush Limbaugh

It bores me rigid to have to make the say the same thing over and over again:
Actually, I have looked at the tax rates in some of them in great detail and have even posted that information. I suspect you have not or you wouldn't just toss out that remark. I even paid taxes in one of those countries for years (great now I'll get slammed for being a foreign nurse who took a real American's job).
As for rationing I think you will find that there is a great deal of hype attached to that particular concept.
Also, please don't diminish such an important discussion with loaded remarks about liberals. Although I am not "liberal" I think it doesn't help discussions. This has nothing to do with party politics and everything to do with treating others the way we would want to be treated under the same circumstances.

blue note · Jun 17, 2009

I think you will find that is not an original quote of Rush Limbaugh's

:lol2: To paraphrase Kathleen Parker, if ignorance was currency, His Largeness' fan base could bail out the country itself!

Long Term Care Columnist / Guide · Jun 19, 2009

Moderator's Note:

This thread is in danger of closure due to the large number of belittling, snarky, insulting, and inflammatory comments on the last 2-3 pages. At this time I would like to remind everyone that this is a place for educated, professional people to discuss the issues, not a political free-for-all where it's OK for posters to trash each other.

This is an extremely sensitive discussion which arouses strong emotions in people from all points on the political spectrum; however, it's no excuse for some of the remarks I've had to delete from this thread. Please be considerate of your fellow posters and remember to post only that which you would say to their faces. Thank you.

saarein · Jun 20, 2009

Thank you so much for saying what had to be said! I try not to write too many replies because of my politics, which do lean to the right. Every time I have replied to a touchy subject I feel I get attacked by those who would want to stiffle my opinion. If by chance I want to take my opinion further I am made to feel guilty because either, quoting from someone from this thread the other day, "I'm either taking care of me and mine", or "I don't care about anyone else". I do care about people and how they receive healthcare. For goodness sakes I am a nurse! I do wish we could have intelligent conversations without resorting to name calling or accusatory language. This is a very emotionally charged subject and we, as nurses, know this first hand. But there is something else we must think about and that is not to jump to conclusions about other people's freedom of speech and freedom of opinions. We all have different areas of nursing that we are specialists in. Mine is pediatrics. I have been a school nurse for 10 years and have never seen a child turned away from medical care. In fact, I have begged parents to take their children to the doctor. If they do not have private insurance, they usually have Medicaid or there are several free clinics in my county they can take them to. But I still have to beg these parents to take them even to the free clinics. The only time I have seen a child not being able to receive healthcare is when an irresponsible parent will not take them and get the free healthcare. I take offense to anyone who states that there are some of us who have the mindset of taking care of our own first and not think twice about those who do not have what we may have. As a responsible human being and mother, yes I think of mine first, that's what I am supposed to do. No one else needs to take care of me or mine, that's my job. What a novel idea! :rolleyes:

allnurses Guide · Jun 20, 2009

saarein - I know it may not seem like it but there are a few other right leaning members here and I appreciate your post. :up:

And thanks to Marla for reminding us to behave. :)

steph

saarein · Jun 20, 2009

But it's not only a few paying , it is everyone.

How is it that everyone is paying? There are people who do not work and pay taxes. So how do they pay? If they don't pay now, how will they pay with the "free healthcare"? Medicaid will not go away, so those of us who do pay taxes still pay for Medicaid and will then pay for the "free insurance plan", too. I do have another question, what happens when those of us who do have insurance through our employers find that those employers do not want to contribute anymore because it's too expensive and "besides the employee can get free healthcare that the government is offering"? I am not in the mindset for the government to take care of me. That is not their job, it is my job. There is a slippery slope we are coming to and we need to think with the intelligence God has given us and think of a better way. There is a quote from Karl Marx that makes the hair on the nape of my neck stand up and it is "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs". Isn't that what we do now? :mad:

HM2VikingRN, RN · Jun 20, 2009

If we fix health care finance we will fix medicare/medicaid. Administrative costs are an obscene drag on the system. We spend 25% of our dollars on administration with subpar results whilst Canada spends about 10-11% for administration with superior health outcomes.

HM2VikingRN, RN · Jun 20, 2009

how is it that everyone is paying? there are people who do not work and pay taxes.

the un/underinsured are paying into the system. poverty and income statistics are a slippery slope that aren't always considered carefully. the working poor in most states actually pay a higher marginal tax rate than the middle class or the very wealthy. (see sales and property taxes as well as ss etc. all of which are first dollar earned tax systems.)

so how do they pay? if they don't pay now, how will they pay with the "free healthcare"? medicaid will not go away, so those of us who do pay taxes still pay for medicaid and will then pay for the "free insurance plan", too.

single payer and/or "public option" will eventually supplant medicare/medicaid. pnhp (pnhp.org) very clearly calls for the replacement of insurance premiums with a tax based system that will lower costs and reduce administrative fees.

i do have another question, what happens when those of us who do have insurance through our employers find that those employers do not want to contribute anymore because it's too expensive and "besides the employee can get free healthcare that the government is offering"?

at least one of the health care reform plans includes a "pay or play" provision. iow employers either provide health care coverage or pay an 8% tax (which is the rough value of family and individual coverage.) no one is arguing for "free" care. if anything its pay or play. for individuals and organizations. putting a little bit of real competition into the system will benefit all of us.

the united states spends 17 percent of its gdp on health care. if nothing changes, the united states will be spending 20 percent of its gdp on health care by 2017. european systems spend an average of 8% of gdp on health care.
the house bill is not a european system. because private insurers and for-profit hospitals will continue to exist, the house bill will not cut health care spending by 9 percent of gdp. but as our collective bargaining power lowers prices, it is reasonable to assume that the house bill would cut health care spending by 5.5 percent of gdp.

at http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/6/20/744835/-health-care-reform-could-save-$1.82-trillion-

i am not in the mindset for the government to take care of me. that is not their job, it is my job. there is a slippery slope we are coming to and we need to think with the intelligence god has given us and think of a better way. there is a quote from karl marx that makes the hair on the nape of my neck stand up and it is "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs". isn't that what we do now? :mad:

insurance by definition is a social product that collectively shares risks that none of us can bear alone. insurance as a product long predated marx.

allnurses Guide · Jun 20, 2009

here's the bottom line, and in my opinion, really the only thing you need to say about this topic.

i do not know one single person who comes from a country with universal healthcare who would trade it for the us system.

there are pros and cons as with everything in life, but overall, the vast majority of people have better access to care. doctors make plenty of money. yes, we pay taxes/tax levy, but we don't have "copay", "out of pocket", "deductible" etc et cetc... i am definitely worse off in terms of my income/tax/healthcare costs in the us than in australia.

it is a basic human right to have access to healthcare regardless of income.

allnurses Guide · Jun 20, 2009

There is a quote from Karl Marx that makes the hair on the nape of my neck stand up and it is "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs". Isn't that what we do now?

Actually that quote seems precisely to define what UHC seeks to do. People pay according to their ability to pay, and they get healthcare according to their NEEDS and not to their ability to pay.

I am NOT a "left" leaning person, but I just don't understand how any single person in a civilized society, let alone a healthcare professional, can NOT think that healthcare is a basic human right. So if someone doesn't work and can't afford good insurance, they should just suffer?

Perhaps this is just not something that can be discussed and resolved - I suspect the attitudes you were brought up with is something that colour's one's feelings on this topic. Those who have had UHC can't comprehend why you wouldn't want it. Those who haven't had it are fearful of the ramifications to their paycheck, and curiously, the effect that "government control" will have over their healthcare system.