Nurses, physicians weigh in on new doctoral nurse degree

keatonhoyle · Feb 25, 2009

Easy, this is getting worse and worse with all these programs having doctoral programs (pharmacy, physical therapy, nursing, nurse anesthesia), just change the official title of a real medical doctor to "physician".... as in. "hello, im physician jones." instaed of dr. jones. problem solved.

rnboysmom · Feb 25, 2009

One would not expect a poet with a PhD to offer to help with an emergency on a plane---HOWEVER, a nurse with an advanced practice degree, and most certainly almost any nurse would "step-up to the plate" in an emergency such as this. The physician is probably on the plane in first class but not offering up a title for fear of being sued if things don't go well.

Any professional discipline offers a doctoral degree, as should nursing, and the brave and deserving soul earning the degree should be able to utilize the distinction. Physicians are running scared, I am sure, to have doctorally prepared nurses caring for their patients. How about Ms./Mr. Doe, RN, PhD. ??!!!!!

hbgwan, LPN, LVN · Feb 25, 2009

I am a DNP (Doctor of Nursing Practice) and it is so sad the Physicians feel so threatened by the advancement of nursing in the health care arena. Here is food for thought....What about all the PhD prepared Scientist, biologist, etc.. would a Physician address these individuals anything but Dr.? I think not, Physicians only have a problem with nursing because they need someone to dump their work on and then walk away, they want maid service, well those days are coming to an end my friends in the near future. DNPs in the future will become their own Independent health care providers, in the near future,,, advanced practice nurses will no longer work "below" and need a MD in order to practice, we will be the independent health care providers just as the MD.
Physicians are mad because they don't want to share their candy, so what do they do ... they try to go and buy up all the candy stores, meaning they send their "people" to Lobby for legislation to undermine and keep nurses from advancement as independent providers, but given the health care crisis and all the fraud and greed .... nurses will be pushed forward in healthcare. Contact your Congressmen and tell them you are a nurse and give them your professional ideas how healthcare can be improved.

a current professor of mine has his PhD. he says when he goes to see his MD, the MD refers to him by his first name and refers to himself as Dr. so-and-so. my professor reminds him that he, too, is Dr. (last name). i think that is so awesome that he stands up for himself!

BBFRN, BSN, PhD · Feb 25, 2009

Just to clarify (for those who don't already know):

The DNP is a practice doctorate.

A PhD is an entirely different animal which involves a dissertation, and focuses more on research.

Multicollinearity, BSN, RN · Feb 25, 2009

Just to clarify (for those who don't already know):
The DNP is a practice doctorate.
A PhD is an entirely different animal which involves a dissertation, and focuses more on research.

A necessary clarification. Recently in my clinical group we were talking about NP education and the move to a more lengthy degree. I explained to my classmates that the new degree is a doctorate in nursing practice, DNP. I mentioned the difference between a clinical doctorate and PhD. Then the clinical instructor walked in and heard the conversation. She said, "No, nurse practitioners are going to have to earn PhDs in a couple years." I hear the same thing every semester. Without Allnurses, I'd be so uninformed.

:banghead:

amarilla, RN · Feb 25, 2009

Physicians only have a problem with nursing because they need someone to dump their work on and then walk away, they want maid service, well those days are coming to an end my friends in the near future. DNPs in the future will become their own Independent health care providers, in the near future,,, advanced practice nurses will no longer work "below" and need a MD in order to practice, we will be the independent health care providers just as the MD.

Pardon my ignorance, but can someone explain to me what is so wrong with med school, residency and fellowship that there is now a nursing model to achieve basically the same goal: to practice independently?

If advanced scope of practice for nurses then encompasses becoming 'doctors', (in the sense they spend their time seeing, diagnosing, prescribing and billing), what makes the nursing model different from traditional medicine? Is the goal really to turn out equivalent practitioners when there is significantly less tuition, less years spent in residency and fellowship in these programs? Do they pass similar boards? Is the goal to eventually take over medical specialties?

I read plenty here about the disdain toward doctors, (for good reasons and some not so much so), but it seems plenty of people want to walk a different path to be basically the same thing. It strikes me as a bit odd but would like to hear from folks who may feel differently.

Best,

Southern

mina11 · Feb 25, 2009

The poet might be useful for a eulogy should no doctor be available, haha.

ANPFNPGNP · Feb 25, 2009

First let me start off by saying that I will be an MD in about 4 months. My wife is a nurse and we're investigating potential places for my residency, and part of that involves finding out about places for her to work which is why I'm here.
I may be unpopular, but I agree that in a clinical setting only MDs and DOs should call themselves "Doctor." In an academic setting anyone with a doctoral level degree should be called "Doctor." In a clinical setting the term "Doctor" has a very set definition by the public that assumes the completion of a very stringent and grueling four years of medical school leading to an MD or DO. In a clinical setting people equate "Doctor" with physician. This will not change anytime soon, and it's not something that can willfully be changed. I have medical student friends who have PhDs, but despite the fact that they have an earned doctorate they will not call themselves "Doctor" in a clinical setting because patients would assume that they are a medical school graduate. The same thing goes for lawyers, pharmacists, some physical therapists, biochemists, exercise physiologists, occupational therapists, etc. In an academic setting (symposium, lecture, conference, graduation, etc) all of these people should be referred to as "Dr. X" because it recognizes the expertise they have in an area. However, in a clinical setting none of these people refer to themselves as "Doctor."

I'm a NP with a MS degree and patients are always referring to me as "doctor," even though I remind them time and again that I'm a nurse practitioner. In fact, a physician I used to work with would refer to me as "doctor" in front of patients, b/c he wanted them to be comfortable seeing me. I kept reminding him that he was going to get me into trouble with the DA's office for practicing medicine without a license. He actually offered to pay for an online doctoral program, b/c he wanted me to be referred to as "doctor." Interesting, huh?

A good friend of mine is a NP with a Ph.D and she is addressed as "doctor," both by patients and the physician she works with. When she sees a new patient, she says, "I'm Dr. So & So, a nurse practitioner." She's not trying to pass herself off as a physician. However, it's going to be really difficult for the general public to understand the difference between a physician and a NP when they are both "doctors" and they are performing the exact same function. For this very reason, I can't imagine any physician going into primary care, b/c they're going to be replaced by NP's with doctorates.

Multicollinearity, BSN, RN · Feb 25, 2009

A good friend of mine is a NP with a Ph.D and she is addressed as "doctor," both by patients and the physician she works with. When she sees a new patient, she says, "I'm Dr. So & So, a nurse practitioner." She's not trying to pass herself off as a physician. However, it's going to be really difficult for the general public to understand the difference between a physician and a NP when they are both "doctors" and they are performing the exact same function. For this very reason, I can't imagine any physician going into primary care, b/c they're going to be replaced by NP's with doctorates.

I think the public understands dentists, psychologists, optometrists, etc all being doctors, but not "doctors" like MDs. Patients seem to be catching on that the newer physical therapists are DPTs, the newer pharmacists are PharmDs, etc.

I see DNPs as just another "doctor" role that isn't MD or DO. Perhaps the public 'gets' more than we realize. In any case, there's no need to dial back our own accomplishments because a few might misunderstand. For example, I don't see Rehabilitation Psychologists at places like Health South introducing themselves as "Hello, I'm First Name" so the patient doesn't think they are an MD. I was just at a rehab hospital visiting someone, and the Rehabilitation Psychologist introduced herself as "Dr. Last Name, Rehabilitation Psychologist." When you go to an optometrist for an exam, the optometrist doesn't introduce herself as "Wendy, your eye care provider, not an MD." She says, "Hello, I'm Dr. Last Name."

Why is it nursing is the only field asked to demure and diminish? Um hmm. That whole subjugation thing.

ANPFNPGNP · Feb 25, 2009

I think the public understands dentists, psychologists, optometrists, etc all being doctors, but not "doctors" like MDs. Patients seem to be catching on that the newer physical therapists are DPTs, the newer pharmacists are PharmDs, etc.
I see DNPs as just another "doctor" role that isn't MD or DO. Perhaps the public 'gets' more than we realize.

The difference is that physicians and NP's are performing the same role and this is confusing to patients. Obviously, a Dr. PT can't diagnose and prescribe medicine, same with the PharmD. However, both a Dr. MD and a Dr. NP diagnose and prescribe medication...our roles are more similar than not. Also, I understand why physicians are PO'd by all of this...how would YOU like to spend all that time in med school and then do a 3 year residence and then compete with a NP with half the training??

rnboysmom · Feb 25, 2009

We had a similar (but quite different) topic on allnurses a couple of months ago that got quite heated. It involved employees in MD offices that were calling themselves nurses, but were actually either LPN's or medical assistants. The topic of debate included the doctor supporting the unlicensed staff to call themselves "nurses". (funny, that probably the same MD's supporting the role of the nurse at a lower level are the one's balking at the Dr. Nurse.) This is all eduction folks. Based on the level of eduction and intelligence that it would take to gain a doctorate level in nursing, I highly doubt that these educated folks would intentionally let their patients, or the general public, assume that they are a who-hoo physician!! What an opportunity for education at that level!! The fact that nursing and healthcare has advanced to the level of recognizing that nursing is a profession to be taken very seriously is a wonderful thing! With all due respect to the good doctors that I do know, I can not even imagine that a doctorate level nurse would EVER want to be mistaken for a physician!!!!! (they have worked too hard to make the distinction!). If I am on a plane, with an emergency, I sure hope the one responding is a Dr. Nurse--oh, and the poet can come too!

By the way, I would love to see the actual comparison of the MD practicum against the doctorate level nurse--anybody have that info? :smokin:

bubbabubba · Feb 25, 2009

Getting a PHD in nursing woudl take a long or LONGER than getting an MD degree....As soon as a physician graduates from Medical School he is "DOCTOR"-- that with no residency, etc.....A nurse with the title is as entitled to use the term as is the physician......I don't say "doctor" when meaning a medical one....I use the term PHYSICIAN or alternative MEDICAL DOCTOR....I know too many folks with a Dr. in front of their name so that clarifies who I am talking about.......Perhaps MD's should refer to themselves as PHYSICIANS>...