All this talk of professionalism and being respected by doctors makes me sick.
I am a professional. I am a nurse. My job is to diagnose and treat human responses to illness (care for the sick). I also educate patients, assess their physical condition, and rehabilitate them. Society considers an RN a professional position, so I am a professional. I am not a doctor, I don't work for a doctor; I am not a doctor's assistant. I work for my hospital and my nurse manager.
A doctor is an academically prepared individual who diagnoses and treats medical problems in human beings. We use doctors in caring for patients who have medical problems. We need their medical orders (orders for the patient--not orders to us as in "ordering" us to do something), because we can't legally administer medical interventions without them, why? because we are nurses not doctors!
I'm in the profession of caring for people, especially sick people, and in my case especially sick people with cardiac conditions. So, naturally I have problems with the nurse practioner being considered an "advance practice nurse." In reality they are a doctor's assistant. Our professionalism does not come by being more like a doctor but by being more of a nurse.
I respect doctors, but then I respect patients as well, and I respect strangers on the street. Doctors are not nurses, and I feel they are missing out on the greatest spiritual vocation available. If they think they are above me, professionally, then they are as misguided as the nurse who thinks he's not a professional if he can't write a prescription for amoxacillin.
You see, IMHO, everyone wants to be a nurse, or to be thought of as one. Physicians, when they're being filmed by "TLC" try to act all compassionate, as if they really are--just as good as a nurse, by Jove!. But Physicians, if they are compassionate, are simply compassionate people, it's not part of their profession as it is with a nurse.
I have to categorically disagree on this point. I have known a lot of a**hole doctors AND nurses, and a lot in both professions who are compassionate in their own right. It is an individual thing on both counts.
Originally posted by Plato
Physicians are applied academics who have chosen to apply medical science to a clinical situation to alleviate human suffering. That in itself may be compassionate, but their profession is about seeing multiples of patients to dx their illness and prescribe a treatment or carry out a procedure. They aren't there to hold hands and alleviate fears and change dressings and make sure the person is eating and eliminating and ambulating or being cleaned up or to teach them or even to administer the medications they prescribe. That's caring; That's what is done in the profession of nursing.
No one is going to argue the point that doctors aren't nurses or nurses aren't doctors. The job descriptions and responsibilities are different and both important in health care.
Originally posted by Plato
Society calls what the nurse does "low" and no physician should have to do what a nurse has to do. But everyone knows that while we need doctors and will pay them well, being a nurse is like being Christ. Being a nurse is being Christ at the last supper washing the disciples feet. It's where the real power is--everyone knows it. So of course, doctors want to look down on nurses becasue otherwise they'd have to admit the truth--that anyone with a good brain could do their job. And NPs know that they have tried being nurses and failed. The ANA is wrong to include them in the nursing profession. IMHO.
I am sorry, this is SO strange. I understand a bit about what you are trying to get at, but it just isn't flying. Are you really a doctor posing as a nurse on this board to get a reaction?
And here I thought it was some doctors that had a God complex. Thanks, I've learned a lot.
I have to categorically disagree on this point. I have known a lot of a**hole doctors AND nurses, and a lot in both professions who are compassionate in their own right. It is an individual thing on both counts.
A nurse is probably not going to be able to do his job well if he is not compassionate. A doctor can easily do her job if she lacks compassion. A battleaxe nurse, is not fulfilling her role as a nurse.
No one is going to argue the point that doctors aren't nurses or nurses aren't doctors. The job descriptions and responsibilities are different and both important in health care.
Well, that's what this post is about, so if no one is arguing it, then I'll move on to something different.
I am sorry, this is SO strange. I understand a bit about what you are trying to get at, but it just isn't flying. Are you really a doctor posing as a nurse on this board to get a reaction?
If you understand a bit, then how is it SO strange? And, no, I'm not an MD here to goad you. I'm a nurse on this board trying to get a reaction from you. Nurses have to stop thinking like second class health care providers. They have to stop thinking that MDs are above them. They have to stop looking at a physicians academic qualifications and then judging their own profession accordingly. DNSc. do research and teach. Medical doctors most often practice clinically.
That the ANA and state Nursing boards have so welcomed NPs as "advanced" nurses is appalling. An advanced nurse is a nurse with a lot of experience who can put that experience to use in caring for pts. We can argue whether the nursing degree should be a BSN or ADN, we can argue whether there is a need for MSNs outside of the academic setting. But the one thing we don't have to argue is whether nurses should have medical degrees in order to advance. And we don't need to argue if nurses are more professional the more like doctors they become.
Nurses gripe about not being taken professionally or considered professional by doctors or the public. I couldn't care less what doctors or the public think. I am a professional because I'm a nurse. NPs have left the nursing field in my opinion.
By the way, this same argument is found in psychology where many Ph.D. psychologists have lauded the ability to prescribe simple anti-depressants in some states. Purist psychologist don't like the movement, because they believe in treating psychological illness psychologically and biologic mental illness psychiatrically. The blending of the two makes Ph.D.s look like wannabe psychiatrists. Same with the NP. Because we call them "advanced practice nurses" we are saying to everyone that we are sub-professionals to the physicians and are only advancing when we become more like them. We are cutting our own throats. IMHO
I'm in nursing school and I have to admit, I've been disgusted by 75 percent of the nurses I've had to come across. I realize this isn't the same everywhere, but every single ICU nurse I've dealt with is wonderful. The ER, well I'm not even going to go there. One of my teachers was recently admitted to the hospital that she teaches for for kidney problems. She pressed her nurse button for thirty minutes so she could use the bathroom, no one came, she urinated on herself because she was too sedated from her pain medicine to move. She laid in her urine for an hour pressing the nurse button before finally rolling herself out of bed onto the floor...she's covered in bruises from hitting the floor. She then pulled herself out of her room by her fingers and drug her iv bag behind her. It took her 15 minutes to get her head out the door to yell for a nurse to help her. The iv had torn up the inside of her arm from pulling it. This is not compassion or professionalism, this is disgusting. One nurse actually came in on her third day after being admitted and asked her if she had strained her urine in the last 24 hours. She said 'with what, my sock?'
Too many people enter this profession for the title and the decent pay. Being a nurse does not mean you are a compassionate professional human being. Doing the job does not mean you are compassionate, enjoying the job means you are compassionate. I along with everyone else in my class have been amazed at the lack of compassion and professionalism. My classmates and I look at some of these nurses that are treating us and their patients terribly and we can't help but make comments, worrying that one day that's what we're going to turn into. Just yesterday there was an elderly patient in the er who I hard gasping for breath when I walked past her curtain, I stuck my head in and she could barely speak to ask for her nurse. I informed her nurse of the situation and she looked at me and said...'um yeah, i heard her', and turned around to continue her conversation about her boyfriend that she was having with another nurse.
I realize that there are good nurses and bad nurses, compassionate nurses who are bad at their job and cold, unfriendly nurses who are great at their job. I really wish I could come across more of the good. I'd really like to be proud to be a nurse.
Actually, I agree. If doctors realized what we do then they would give us a little more respect. I am tired of trying to second guess that ones that think we should be able to anticipate their every need. I am sick and tired of the ones that think that their time is more precious than mine or the patient's. And I am really sick and tired of those that order test after test after test and wonder where the patient is when they show up to finally examine them.
eldernurse, you took the words right out of my mind with this comment because yesterday at work, I HAD one of these nightmrares of a time with a female doc who thought the sun shined on her butt, and wanted what she wanted when she wanted it. Had to put her in her place...yep...sure did.
The last thing I remember saying to her was that she should walk in the shoes of a bedside nurse before she decides to complain about anything a nurse does or attempts to do. :stone
And NPs know that they have tried being nurses and failed.
IMHO
Please don't assume that you know squat about why an NP is an NP. You must have went into nursing because you failed at being a nurses aide right?
In my state no matter what you think of me I still have the authority to diagnose, treat and prescribe without a doc stuck up my butt. I choose this route after 15 years of critical care nursing because I wanted to apply my nursing skill with the ability to make more decisions in illness and wellness. I rely heavily on the knowledge the nurses have about the patient so we can mutually care for the patients. If they are compassionate it's certainly a bonus.
I am held in high regard by the nurses in my hospital and many times work as a nursing advocate. Ask these nurses if they think i failed as a nurse....
Your post sounds jealous and i think that your attitude sets nursing back another 20 years. Your thinking draws an imaginary line in the sand between nursing and medicine.
The reason NPs are considered advanced practice nurses is because that is what they are. NPs have gone to school and received a higher degree to perform their duties. Do you think a MSN nurse should not be considered an advanced practice nurse? I love working with NPs since the majority have been in bedside care before and understand what it is like. I am sorry if you have had a bad experience in the past.
Being a compassionate person is essential to nursing yet there are many nurses who do have bad attitudes. If I am able to go to work and maintain my compassion and help my patients does that make me "Christ like"? I don't think so, it makes me a good nurse. Being "Christ like" is a standard I will never be able to achieve.
I believe part of the downfall of healthcare is the inability of doctors and nurses to work together. There is so much animosity between the two groups. We each have separate roles in caring for the patient but each could not function without the other. Same goes for RT, PT, OT....yes I could do those jobs, but would I be able to give adequate care to my other patients? Each role is important, it is a little arrogant to think that nursing is the most important. Personally, I am happy for all the help I can get.
Whenever it has been possible, I have seen an NP for my primary instead of an MD. I find they spend alot more time with their pts and actually try to figure out what is going on with them, instead of just throwing a script at them and sending them on their way.
I read a study a of couple years ago that showed that NPs give more complete care than do MDs, that their dx are more accurate, and tx more appropriate.
I also read that a lot of MDs were disputing the findings of the study, and trying to show that approved scientific methods were not used, but they were unsuccessful.
Hey pal, I appreciate the agreement we have on some things, but this one isn't it.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then. :)
I especially disagree with the assumption NP's are nurses who can't make it as a nurse. I think with the knowledge base acquired as a nurse a NP is a natural progression. However, I agree that their job description isn't that of a nurse.
I think we all need each other, one isn't more "Christlike" than the other. Every profession needs a little compassion IMHO.
As a contemporary of your BB screen name, I thought I'd share with you some quotes by Socrates - - and may we all grow to value and appreciate each other as humans and professionals, whether MD, RN or NP...
Envy is the ulcer of the soul.
Socrates
Think not those faithful who praise all thy words and actions; but those who kindly reprove thy faults.
Socrates
And one from your namesake:
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.
Plato
LisaRN2B
Off topic but want to say thanks.
This is a wonderful quote. It is posted in our callroom above the phone. Someone posted it there and i take it as a gentle reminder as i am answer pages to keep mindful of my attitude and words over the phone at times i feel impatience coming on.
Nice job!
I might have to actually add this at the bottom of my posts...why did't i think of it before!
Specializes in Case Mgmt; Mat/Child, Critical Care.
So what EXACTLY is the point of your post? That doctors and nurses are different disciplines? Yes, and, so....? This is nothing new. Most nurses don't want to be doctors. IMHO you sound very hostile, particularly towards NP's. I, for one enjoy working with NP's, I do consider them advance practice nurses, because, hey, they are!
It almost sounds like you are "jealous" of NP's...why don't you pursue this opportunity yourself? If you have no desire to do so, then what is the problem? Sounds like a personal issue to me...IMHO!
Had to put her in her place...yep...sure did.
LisaRN2B
366 Posts
I have to categorically disagree on this point. I have known a lot of a**hole doctors AND nurses, and a lot in both professions who are compassionate in their own right. It is an individual thing on both counts.
No one is going to argue the point that doctors aren't nurses or nurses aren't doctors. The job descriptions and responsibilities are different and both important in health care.
I am sorry, this is SO strange. I understand a bit about what you are trying to get at, but it just isn't flying. Are you really a doctor posing as a nurse on this board to get a reaction?
And here I thought it was some doctors that had a God complex. Thanks, I've learned a lot.