Nurses belligerent towards MDs

sharann, BSN, RN · Aug 11, 2007

I have experienced very rude nurses, physicians, RT,Rad staff,food service workers and on and on.

I don't think rudness by anyone is ok and will tell the person in one way or another. Sometimes it is in the form of "you don't have to scream at me I can hear you just fine" to completely ignoring that person. Don't take abuse, write it up, go up the chain of command. Those people give as much as we will take.

ICRN2008, BSN, RN · Aug 11, 2007

No, never, and I seriously seriously doubt it was like that at this hospital either. In teaching hospitals, I have sometimes observed nurses who were less than deferential towards the residents and med students and perhaps a few of them were even "mean" but I don't believe that it was a system of abuse. Belligerent is a matter of perception anyway and in my observation if you are not willing to play your part as the submissive nurse to the all-powerful physician then you are pegged as "having an attitude", "chip on your shoulder", "mean" or "difficult".

I agree with SharonH RN

I don't believe that it's necessary to be deferential to residents or med students (or attendings for that matter), especially not in the way that I've seen some seasoned nurses act. IMO they should be treated like professional collegues- with the same courtesy that we show the pharmacists, lab personnel, RTs and even the cleaning crew for that manner.

We are all part of a team, and our primary responsibility is to do right towards the patients. When anyone one person or group of professionals starts to let their ego(s) get in the way, the patients end up being the ones who suffer the consequences.

pagandeva2000, LPN · Aug 11, 2007

I have a friend who became a physician in Mexico. Now, he is here in New York and I met him as a tutor that was my lifeline for making it through nursing school. He told me that the nurses were horrible to them; even making them clean their patients. He stated this was the most humiliating time in his life. Because I found him to be such a sweet person, I empathsized with him, but, you never know, he may have been arrogant at that time.

FireStarterRN, BSN, RN · Aug 11, 2007

I have a friend who became a physician in Mexico. Now, he is here in New York and I met him as a tutor that was my lifeline for making it through nursing school. He told me that the nurses were horrible to them; even making them clean their patients. He stated this was the most humiliating time in his life. Because I found him to be such a sweet person, I empathsized with him, but, you never know, he may have been arrogant at that time.

Interesting because the other doctor my hospitalist was talking to is from Columbia, and he also said that he was treated extremely roughly by the nurses in his home country, where he trained. He is also very personable and easy to work with.

EmmaG, RN · Aug 12, 2007

Interesting to see some think it's not possible for nurses to be rude to docs. I've seen it; I've seen nurses laugh and make fun of new docs, belittle them, be disrepectful, give them a hard time (beyond just joking), and so on. Rudeness is inexcusable, regardless.

txnursingqt · Aug 12, 2007

Point is, there is no shortage of hospitalists and I have never heard of any c/o nurses who quit medical school or jobs or careers over maltreatment by nurses, but I have heard of nurses who have quit jobs, changed specialties, or left nursing altogether because of the way they were treated (at least in part) by doctors.

I work in staffing of nurses and have had several nurses quit or refuse to go to a particular facility because of the way the other nurses treat their fellow nurses. It just amazes me how rude some people can be and they get away with it! It is sad that one rude nurse can run off good help that way. Sure does the hurt the unit as a whole.

pagandeva2000, LPN · Aug 12, 2007

Interesting to see some think it's not possible for nurses to be rude to docs. I've seen it; I've seen nurses laugh and make fun of new docs, belittle them, be disrepectful, give them a hard time (beyond just joking), and so on. Rudeness is inexcusable, regardless.

So true...I am sure it is extremely intimidating to begin practicing as a physician; a person who is truly perceived as the savior who knows all. They are learning, just as we are, and I would rather try and support them than mock them in their faces. I do admit, though, that some of the behaviors they do are comical, but this is nursing locker room talk rather than making an extra effort to humilate them.

Susan9608 · Aug 12, 2007

He told me that the nurses were horrible to them; even making them clean their patients

That certainly is horrible ... being forced to clean a patient. Geez, I wonder how the poor doctor ever stood it.

CRNI-ICU20 · Aug 12, 2007

I've seen some nurses be VERY meanspirited and rude to doctors sometimes....usually it's over something really minute....but, because nurses are people, and so are doctors, there's bound to be some feathers and fur flying from time to time....

I once had a doctor throw a dirty/bloody needle cap at me when inserting a central line, because he was insisting on instilling Heparin, when the patient was ALLERGIC...He was a real......well, you know-what.....but he was written up for his behaviour.... I think nastiness on either side needs to be curbed a little....we complain alot here about how others treat us.....but I think some that I have worked with could pull their horns in a little...

Ya know that piece of prose called: "Teach a Child in the Way they Should go?"

something along the lines of , If a child lives with critcism, he/she will grow up being critical??? Maybe the way we should be treating new doctors and nurses is more like the young "seedlings" that they are....with respect, and kindness, and support....so that they don't one day turn back on us....just a thought....

crni

AliRae · Aug 12, 2007

I need that smiley hiding behind a couch ... that was me yesterday.

It seems I've been fighting with docs about this one patient all summer. Yesterday, I had our brand new fellow come into the room where the residents and I were discussing increasing sedation for an intubated baby on Q1H manual PD flushes, look at the kid and tell me he was fine. When I pointed out that he was tachycardic and CRYING, he said (and I quote, verbatim) "He can't cry ... he has an ETT."

I lost it. In front of the residents (with whom he's been trying to assert what he thinks is his newfound power as a fellow). Told him I'd like to see whether or not HE could cry with an ET tube down his throat. He told me I was out of line (which I was), so I backed down and asked quietly for sedation. He went on and on about vec for a while, until I pointed out that I was asking for versed or fentanyl. Not vec. I then, in front of the residents, apologized for my tone, which really had been quite rude. His oh-so-grown-up response? "Yeah, you were TOTALLY out of line" as he walked away from me.

As far as I'm concerned, respect is a 2 way street. You can be respected by me as long as you respect me. And I'll keep from abusing you (goodness knows I have a temper!) as long as you do the same. It's just so funny to me that it's not okay for me to be rude to him, but perfectly acceptable for him to do the same to me.

*sigh* Maybe that's why I got floated to the NICU today...

New2ER · Aug 12, 2007

Belligerent is a matter of perception anyway and in my observation if you are not willing to play your part as the submissive nurse to the all-powerful physician then you are pegged as "having an attitude", "chip on your shoulder", "mean" or "difficult".

When I worked ER in a teaching hospital, I encountered a resident who took offense when I gave her information on a patient and ask if she wanted to medicate with whatever drug. For example, the patient's BAL is 290 and she says she drinks a 12 pack of beer a day, do you want to start a rally pack?". I never did anything besides ask, I did this with every resident/attending. If they told me no, fine. Some residents would even question the nurses as to what/when to medicate!

This particular resident felt, I don't know, that I was infringing on her right as a doctor. She went so far as to complaint to the charge nurse that I was being "mean" to her and told the attending that I was "telling" her what to order. My charge nurse couldn't understand where on earth she got the notion that I'm mean, I'm soft spoken and tend to be a ***** cat. The attending, whom I didn't know very well, dropped the issue. Strangely enough, she's the only resident/doctor that I had a problem with in that ER.

caroladybelle, BSN, RN · Aug 14, 2007

I was talking to one of our hospitalists yesterday. He and another doctor were talking about different experiences they had had elsewhere. This hospitalist said that when he was back in Philly, the nurses were the dominant force in the hospital and routinely yelled at and intimidated the doctors. This was a new twist on things because when I read here, it seems to be nurses complaining about abuse by MDs.
I'm very thankful for the relationships we have with the MDs where I work, which are based on mutual respect and congeniality (usually). Has anyone here experienced what this doctor describes?

How coincidental.

One of my first travel assignments was at a well known and well regarded "Ivy League" teaching hospitals. It has been cited as a important institution for nursing research. And there, I witnessed some of the nastiest and rudest behavior by nurses directed at MDs, interns and residents. I actually got yelled at and put down by staffers for assisting an elderly attending in finding a chart he was infirm enough to require a cane. I wasn't doing because I was asked or felt "subservant" but because it was the polite thing to do.

The staff was rude and nasty enough that several newly hired staffers quit during orientation.

But more so, I find it appalling that posters on this BB, either make light of this behavior, make excuses for this behavior or try to deny that exists. Blowing it off as a "difference in perception", or that as there is no shortage in hospitalists, that it can't be that bad...is eerily reminscent of the treatment of rape or sexual harassment victims of the old days. Ignoring it just lets it continue.

Some MDs behave badly and some Nurses behave badly. We need to accept that and do something about it amongst ourselves, instead of finding a reason to ignore it.

And the other thing is as nurses, we SHOULD be nurturing new MDs, just as MDs should be teaching and nurturing new nurses. That is because it is a Heathcare Team taking care of the patient.