NS with Union Questions

Nurses General Nursing

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Hi!

I am a soon-to-be nursing student who is trying to understand the politics of hospitals and unions.


If you are knowledgeable about nursing unions and how they work, can you please help me understand?


Also, if you are part of a union can you tell me why you choose to be a part of one and how it benefits you.


If you are not part of a nursing union, can you tell me why you choose not to participate?


If you have any other insights regarding nursing unions, please feel free to elaborate.

Thanks so much! I appreciate all comments and look forward to reading them.

Thanks for all the responses. Do you have to pay dues? Does management treat you any differently if you a part of a union?

Again, the answer is not easily made short:

In a "right to work" state, no one can be compelled to join or pay dues. But - and here's the part that is manifestly unfair - you still get all the benefits of the union contract and if you are disciplined or terminated the union is required by law to represent you just as if you were a member.

In states that are not RTW states, then it's a matter of negotiation between the union and the employer whether you can be required to join or pay dues. Employers always prefer an "open shop" while unions naturally are the opposite - both because they want the dues and because having everyone in makes the union stronger and more effective for everyone.

In my experience, once a workplace is unionized, management doesn't treat people differently. Of course, during the process of unionizing, it's a very different story.

Specializes in Surgery, Tele, OB, Peds,ED-True Float RN.

I'm in Canada so perhaps it's a little different here. We pay dues (approx $27/cheque). We are not treated any differently 'cause they are required to follow the rules of our contract... period! You never have to meet with a manager about any "incident" without representation with you (A Shop Steward who knows the contract inside out). They cannot discipline you without scheduling a meeting and TELLING you what the meeting is about and they MUST give to time to get a shop steward to come with you. NO SURPRISE DISCIPLINE! That being said, in order to work with my health board you must be a part of the union so all the RN's are on the same playing field with management. LPN's are in a different union with housekeeping, Laundry, PCT"S and kitchen staff, so I cannot speak for them.

Specializes in Certified Med/Surg tele, and other stuff.

Closed shop here. That means everyone has to be in the union. Dues are a percentage of your wage. I think ours is 1%.

I was on the negotiating team for our hospital. We bargained for over a year and almost went on strike. Management didn't treat me any differently than a nurse not on the team. I'm a good employee, never call in and left the negotiations at the table. I actually have a very good relationship with management, even though I went toe to toe in some very tense negotiations.

I am in a "Right to Work" state. In what ways does this affect nursing unions?

Also, say when I graduate and am hired and I go into work my shift and I have seven patients. Can I refuse to accept all seven to protect myself, the patients and my license? If I refuse, will the union back me?

Thanks!

What an interesting thread. I have been wondering about unions as well. I'm in a non-union state and my facility is so against unions that they make us sign a non-union form when we hire on basically stating that IF a union were to ever form, that we would not join...or something along those lines.

Specializes in Certified Med/Surg tele, and other stuff.
I am in a "Right to Work" state. In what ways does this affect nursing unions?

Also, say when I graduate and am hired and I go into work my shift and I have seven patients. Can I refuse to accept all seven to protect myself, the patients and my license? If I refuse, will the union back me?

Thanks!

No, the union would not back you in that case. You can't refuse to accept your entire assigment. What we have are unsafe staffing forms. If you feel your load is unsafe, you fill one of these forms out. The manager, supervisor, and union get one. If this continues the union can step in and file unsafe working conditions. It would also protect you to a point, because you brought to their attention of the unsafe conditions but had to work in them anyway.

Some hospitals in WA are open and closed shops. I have worked both. I prefer union because I have the backing of them if management decides they want to fire me. I have also dropped the union when they gave me a pay cut at my previous hospital.

Specializes in Critical Care.

As others have said, it depends on the Union. In my experience, the Hospital/Organization the Union is working against also has a lot to do with it.

I've worked at two hospitals; one non-union and one union. The non-union hospital was a Community owned non-profit. I had better pay, better benefits, and better working conditions at the non-union hospital than at my current hospital, although I think that is mainly due to the fact that I now work for a very aggressive Catholic non-profit hospital with an ANA union, which seems to be considered a relatively weak union. At the non-union hospital I had a free no-deductible health care plan with dental and vision, flexible self-staffing, day care for $10/day, etc. With my ANA union closed shop I pay $1200/year in dues, $500/month for a $500/person deductible plan (which I've since abandoned for a plan I got online that was cheaper), no dental, no vision, All vacation time must be requested 6 months in advance and 9 months in advance for summer. We are just wrapping up a new contract which includes a full re-bid (we all have to re-apply for our jobs and 15% won't be rehired), and a 2-12% pay cut (depending on our current rate).

Regardless of union or not, in my state you can't be fired without just cause after 90 days so there's not a huge advantage there. The union's protection of bad nurses can be a little annoying. We had a new Nurse who we all wanted fired shortly after she started; she was verbally abusive to patients, borderline physically abusive, and had no idea what she was doing. We all complained to our manager, and she had multiple meetings with our manager where the Union rep successfully kept her job, until she an Aide witnessed her smacking a patient.

There can be advantages to Unions; the California Nurses Association succeeded in establishing safe patient ratios, and the NNU which they've since formed seems pretty strong. But at the same time, the ANA whose constituent unions make up the largest Nursing union group in the US has failed to even propose safe staffing levels even with the influence they have with Magnet.

As others have said, it depends on the Union. In my experience, the Hospital/Organization the Union is working against also has a lot to do with it.

I've worked at two hospitals; one non-union and one union. The non-union hospital was a Community owned non-profit. I had better pay, better benefits, and better working conditions at the non-union hospital than at my current hospital, although I think that is mainly due to the fact that I now work for a very aggressive Catholic non-profit hospital with an ANA union, which seems to be considered a relatively weak union. At the non-union hospital I had a free no-deductible health care plan with dental and vision, flexible self-staffing, day care for $10/day, etc. With my ANA union closed shop I pay $1200/year in dues, $500/month for a $500/person deductible plan (which I've since abandoned for a plan I got online that was cheaper), no dental, no vision, All vacation time must be requested 6 months in advance and 9 months in advance for summer. We are just wrapping up a new contract which includes a full re-bid (we all have to re-apply for our jobs and 15% won't be rehired), and a 2-12% pay cut (depending on our current rate).

Regardless of union or not, in my state you can't be fired without just cause after 90 days so there's not a huge advantage there. The union's protection of bad nurses can be a little annoying. We had a new Nurse who we all wanted fired shortly after she started; she was verbally abusive to patients, borderline physically abusive, and had no idea what she was doing. We all complained to our manager, and she had multiple meetings with our manager where the Union rep successfully kept her job, until she an Aide witnessed her smacking a patient.

There can be advantages to Unions; the California Nurses Association succeeded in establishing safe patient ratios, and the NNU which they've since formed seems pretty strong. But at the same time, the ANA whose constituent unions make up the largest Nursing union group in the US has failed to even propose safe staffing levels even with the influence they have with Magnet.

I'd like to stress the part in bold. What applies for one union may, or may not, apply to another. I'll also admit that, while I would tend to want to work for a union hospital, you do find some non-union environments like the one described above.

I'd also like to point out that some have mentioned working in a union or non-union "state." I'm not sure what that term means exactly or if that term is entirely correct. I work in a state where some hospitals are union and some are not, so I don't know if it's possible for an entire state to be union or non-union by law.

Specializes in Operating Room.

A union is only as strong as it's members though. The union at my hospital is very weak, because people still don't speak up. Some of the union reps are too afraid to speak up for you but you still get $10 a week out of your check. :mad:

All in all, not impressed. I was raised pro- union and still believe in them if they do their job. But, I will be starting a new job at a non- union facility. At least this way, they won't be deducting money from me for doing nothing.

Just because a facility is union doesn't make it a great place to work- people have to utilize their unions.

I'd like to stress the part in bold. What applies for one union may, or may not, apply to another. I'll also admit that, while I would tend to want to work for a union hospital, you do find some non-union environments like the one described above.

I'd also like to point out that some have mentioned working in a union or non-union "state." I'm not sure what that term means exactly or if that term is entirely correct. I work in a state where some hospitals are union and some are not, so I don't know if it's possible for an entire state to be union or non-union by law.

Several points in the last few responses that I want to jump in on. I have several layers of experience. in 2000 I played a leading role in unionizing my hospital after a very tough fight. When we won our first contract - early 2002 after about a 14 month struggle - I became chief steward here. And since 2003 I've been on the board of directors of my union.

On different unions: oh, so very true. As I say elsewhere, any generalization you might make about "all unions" is just as true - and just as false - as any generalization you might make about all hospitals or all nurses. The best unions are democratic, involve their members and fight hard both for the rights of their members and for quality care. Some others, not so much - to say the least.

On states: It's true that there is no such thing as a union state or a non-union state. But some states make organizing so hard that most unions won't try to organize there, so they are effectively non-union states. And other states have such a strong union presence that even the non-union hospitals have to match the standards that the union hospitals have set, so everyone gets to benefit from those standards, even if they work at a non-union workplace.

On "bad nurses": I am involved in pretty much every disciplinary case at our hospital in the last 9 years and I can tell you that nurses who truly should be fired absolutely do get fired in a union environment. Any manager who tells you that they can't fire a bad nurse "because of the union" is really just saying that they are too lazy to do their job properly. What a union does guarantee a nurse is due process and a just cause standard for discipline. In other words, if a nurse is not measuring up, their manager has to tell them how they aren't meeting standards, let them know what is expected of them, give them reasonable time to improve, document all of those things and then document their failure to improve. Then they get fired. If the nurse chooses to contest that, then the case goes through an in-house grievance procedure. If that changes nothing, then the union has to decide whether to take the case to arbitration. An arbitration costs each side thousands of dollars, so it's not done lightly. Our union has to feel that our case is just and that we have a reasonable chance to win before we will arbitrate. The arbitration is like a trial, in which each side gets to put on witnesses and present evidence. If the arbitrator decides for the nurse, it usually means either the firing was unjust or the hospital did a really poor job of proving its case. Of the terminations that have happened here in the last 9 years, maybe only 10% were taken to arbitration. Bottom line: Any manager who is willing to do their own job properly can terminate a nurse who really needs to go.

On refusing assignments: Our union would always stand behind a nurse who was terminated for standing up for safety and good care. But we would never - or almost never - advise a nurse to outright refuse. As another poster mentioned, we have what we call an ADO or "assignment despite objection" form. This allows a nurse who is given an unsafe assignment to document that, in their professional judgement, they considered the assignment to be unsafe. The first thing this does is shift a lot of potential liability from the nurse to the employer. The second thing it does is create a paper trail of the unsage assignment that can be combined with others to form the basis for regulatory complaints, public campaigns or other ways of putting pressure on the hospital. And it's amazing how often, when the nurse informs their supervisor that they intend to fill out such a form the supervisor manages to find a way to get some additional help. And of course, here in California, because of the work of our union, no acute care nurse should ever be assigned more than 5 patients by law. So the worst of those staffing abuses we don't have to worry about any more.

It's good to know those forms are available. I hope I never have to use one.

Does anyone know any specifics on nursing unions in North Carolina?

Also, when job hunting after graduation what are good qualities to look for in a hospital? What kinds of hospitals are the best to work for, such as private and public?

I know little about what makes a "magnet" hospital, so what are the qualities that give a hospital "magnet status"? Would you have better working conditions in a magnet hospital?

Specializes in Certified Med/Surg tele, and other stuff.

You can google the nursing unions in N.C. Like other posters said, some are better than others.

As for what hospitals are best to work for, ie..private or public? Again, it can depend. I have worked at 'for profit' hospitals and have not been happy. Currently I work for a Catholic hospital (non profit) and like the values much better.

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