NP w/no desire for RN?

Well, not so much NO desire...but are there any NP's out there that wanted to become (and had their sights set on being an NP from day 1) an NP with no real 'drive' to be an RN first? My cousin is finishing up her RN-MSN program and never really wanted to become an RN, but she really wanted to become an NP, so she went the RN route to become an NP (which I know you have to do).

I know this is somewhat rare, but wondering are there any other NP's out there that looked at RN as kinda pre-NP school/clinical stuff in order to become an NP? Like, they may not be real thrilled with what they are doing (RN) but they know they have to do it in order to become an NP. Keep in mind I'm not saying you would hate being an RN or hate RN's or anything to that affect, but you dream has been to become an NP and RN school/work is a sort of necessary 'not the most enthusiastic' hurdle?

Krisssy,

You missed my point! Being an RN who smokes, is obese, and of crankinees means that he/she cannot possibly serve as a credible role model/teacher to his/her patients in the name of promoting good health and well-being. In other words, healthcare providers must HEAL THYSELF before expecting to help heal anyone else.

Buttons:

Yes, this has everything to do with the original post by Pinoy: NP's basic charter is "holistic healthcare". Also, I have worked around many, many NP's and have yet to meet just one who smokes, is obese, or that has a really bad attitude. Many students are desiring to skip the tortuous journey of precept under the angry, cranky, obese RNs, to instead learn about being an NP. Afterall, why spend your time having a 50 year old nurse with a *"certificate of nursing" assigning you to empty urinals/reomve breakfast trays when your true interest is in learning about lab values...Go for it Pinoy, skip the RN hell and go directly to NP school!!

*Yes, there are many of these "RN"s who never even attended a two year program. They attended a quickie program, and were grandfathered in to the profession. They are usually not too happy to be guiding a BSN.

Brownrice,

Sorry that I only responded to part of your post. We do AGREE on most points. I also believe we should be health care models. It is you mentioning age that bothered me a little. I am 58-thin, don't smoke and watch my diet constantly being very into healty eating. Regarding age, it is possible to have a 25 year old obese smoking nurse from a certificate program telling a new graduate who wants to be a NP to empty bedpans etc. At my ripe old age lol I am going to NP school starting in Jan. with very little experience working an an RN and none except clinicals in my chosen field of psych. I agree that I do not have to work med sug for a year to become good at being a psych NP. So we really do agree. Maybe I am too sensitive about the age issue myself, and I have to work on that. I believe that my teaching and life experience will make me better fit for this role than if I had done it at age 22 when I first became an RN. But if I was graduating as a young nurse in 2005, I would still be agreeing with you that the OP can go directly into being a NP. I would like to see NP's getting more clinical time in their studies and have residencey programs to go into as an alternative to feeling that they have to work as an RN in med surg first.

Specializes in Maternal - Child Health.
Krisssy,

Afterall, why spend your time having a 50 year old nurse with a *"certificate of nursing" assigning you to empty urinals/reomve breakfast trays

*Yes, there are many of these "RN"s who never even attended a two year program. They attended a quickie program, and were grandfathered in to the profession. They are usually not too happy to be guiding a BSN.

brownrice,

What is a "certificate of nursing"? And how does one attend a "quickie program" and get "grandfathered in to the profession"?

I realize that there are a number of Accelerated BSN programs, but I don't think that is what you are referring to since "They are usually not too happy to be guiding a BSN."

So how does one become an RN, other than attending an established ADN, BSN, or diploma program and passing NCLEX?

Long before established two year ADN programs were around, there was a such thing as a certificate or diploma in nursing. It was a program to basicallly learn how to fold down bed corners, change bandages, and minor things that delicate females with feeble minds were capable of. Making a decision that required any sort of critical thinking was left to the men, who were the doctors.

For reference, many of the BSN intro to nursing books discuss this type nursing certificate in the history of nursing section. Lets just say Microbiology, Statistics, and general Math skills were not a part of this program. It really is the humble beginnings of Formal Nursing Education. The two year nursing programs have not been around that long, relatively speaking.

Long before established two year ADN programs were around, there was a such thing as a certificate or diploma in nursing. It was a program to basicallly learn how to fold down bed corners, change bandages, and minor things that delicate females with feeble minds were capable of. Making a decision that required any sort of critical thinking was left to the men, who were the doctors.

For reference, many of the BSN intro to nursing books discuss this type nursing certificate in the history of nursing section. Lets just say Microbiology, Statistics, and general Math skills were not a part of this program. It really is the humble beginnings of Formal Nursing Education. The two year nursing programs have not been around that long, relatively speaking.

In 1964, I was accepted into a hospital based school of nursing-three year-diploma program. I would have lived, learned and worked in the hospital for three years. Many nurses I know went to these programs and remember them as good times in their lives! I was so excited about going. At the last minute, I decided to go to a 4 year BSN program, as I thought that would be more educational and would get me a better job. I always wondered if I would have liked that origninal program better lol. At that time, there was no such thing as ADN, MS, PA, NP or female doctors-at least none that I knew of. We have certainly emerged into a different professional role as Brown

Rice said. -not off topic-we need to realize the history of nursing when we talk about things like being a NP without practicing as an RN first. It really is very interesting to see the changes that have occured since those times.

Specializes in ECMO.
Hello All,

Please enlighten me concerning the role of a NP vs. a PC - my impression is a PA is "married" to a doctor professionally, while NPs can be much more autonomous. While the health care industry is constantly trying to cut costs, I think this means NP will have more and more opportunities to practice.

Diahni

go to http://www.physicianassistant.net

one of the first thing PA haters will mention is that fact that PAs are not required to have a masters to practice.

no biggy, since the name of the degree doesnt matter. a ADN, BSN, entry-MSN, and diploma RN are all the same *clinically*. im sure a few extra classes in history or english wont make you a better, RN, NP or PA....

also all PAs take the same licensing exam, so again a certificate, AS, BS, or MS PA will all deliver the same care and demand the same wages. PA schools typically have more clinical hours than NP programs, 2200 hrs VS 600-800 hrs. there are residencies available to PAs also in derm, surgery, er, neuro, psych, and a few others. these typically pay $40k and the PA is treated like a resident. also both PAs and NPs can be quite autonomus with the SP. only a crappy provider (NP or PA) will have a doc over their shoulders.

if you do pursue a nursing degree, i would say the best thing to do is to attend a dual NP/PA program. as a RN you would be able to take both examinations. so in regions or practices where they have preference for one provider you will not be affected. for ex. you would be able to work as a Neonate Intensivist (a NP stronghold) and a Surgery PA (a PA stronghold)......the two programs i know about are Stanford-Foothill and UC-Davis.

after speaking to a nurse last night she really made me reconsider and think about entering nursing school. i really do see the benefits of a nursing career, even though at times it seems like i dont by my posts, forgive me for that. CRNA would be in the pic, AA is more limited state wise, and being a dual NP/PA would not stop me from obtaining any midlevel job. i went off topic but the choice between PA and NP should be based on what type of job you want and where you want to pratice, again because there are places in the country where one type of midlevel is preferred.

hello all,

please enlighten me concerning the role of a np vs. a pc - my impression is a pa is "married" to a doctor professionally, while nps can be much more autonomous. while the health care industry is constantly trying to cut costs, i think this means np will have more and more opportunities to practice.

diahni

depending on the setting, there isn't much difference in the roles of nps and pas. if you do a web search for jobs, you will find many that advertise "pa/np wanted," and there is no difference listed in the job or pay based on the educational background. my personal experience has been the same. i've seen pas & nps who work in specialty practices where a physician sees every pt behind them. i also know pas who own their practices, something that nps are able to do.

i think your best bet will be to explore both professions, the educational processes, and the job settings you are interested in. then chose the path that speaks most to you.

to get you started here are a few sources for objective data about pas:

facts at a glance - check the job outlook by the us bureau of labor statistics

pa education

summary of state regulation of physician assistant practice

Specializes in Maternal - Child Health.
Long before established two year ADN programs were around, there was a such thing as a certificate or diploma in nursing. It was a program to basicallly learn how to fold down bed corners, change bandages, and minor things that delicate females with feeble minds were capable of. Making a decision that required any sort of critical thinking was left to the men, who were the doctors.

For reference, many of the BSN intro to nursing books discuss this type nursing certificate in the history of nursing section. Lets just say Microbiology, Statistics, and general Math skills were not a part of this program. It really is the humble beginnings of Formal Nursing Education. The two year nursing programs have not been around that long, relatively speaking.

I still don't know what you are referring to. A hospital-based diploma program? I am in my 40's and attended a BSN program, but most of the older nurses I have worked with have diplomas from 3 year hospital-based programs. I daresay their education was more rigorous than mine. They attended 3 years of schooling (year-round), with more clinical time than I could have ever dreamed of. They graduated with skills and experience in virtually every area of nursing care. And they most certainly had formal coursework in science, math, social science, nutrition. Their capabilities go FAR beyond menial skills. By passing state boards (or NCLEX) they are most certainly entitled to the same practice privileges as RNs educated in ADN or BSN programs.

Specializes in ICU, step down, dialysis.

In my 20 years of nursing, the diploma new grads ran circles around BSN and ADN grads (I'm an ADN myself). Those were my earlier days though, since this type of program is now somewhat rare if it does still exist. Their clinical experience as students was tremendous, and they knew their stuff. I'm a bit sad to see this form of education go, because they were so well trained.

I really don't know where you get this idea that they were "delicate females with feeble minds" who had no critical thinking skills. I think you owe diploma grads an apology for such a silly statement (one of many, I've noticed).

Are you really a nurse?

Long before established two year ADN programs were around, there was a such thing as a certificate or diploma in nursing. It was a program to basicallly learn how to fold down bed corners, change bandages, and minor things that delicate females with feeble minds were capable of. Making a decision that required any sort of critical thinking was left to the men, who were the doctors.

For reference, many of the BSN intro to nursing books discuss this type nursing certificate in the history of nursing section. Lets just say Microbiology, Statistics, and general Math skills were not a part of this program. It really is the humble beginnings of Formal Nursing Education. The two year nursing programs have not been around that long, relatively speaking.

Long before established two year ADN programs were around, there was a such thing as a certificate or diploma in nursing. It was a program to basicallly learn how to fold down bed corners, change bandages, and minor things that delicate females with feeble minds were capable of. Making a decision that required any sort of critical thinking was left to the men, who were the doctors.

.

Interesting... I think I'll pass along the feeble mind comment to one of the nurses I know who went to a diploma school (She has a Ph.D. in nursing) and see her reaction (camera ready...)...

Long before established two year ADN programs were around, there was a such thing as a certificate or diploma in nursing. It was a program to basicallly learn how to fold down bed corners, change bandages, and minor things that delicate females with feeble minds were capable of. Making a decision that required any sort of critical thinking was left to the men, who were the doctors.

For reference, many of the BSN intro to nursing books discuss this type nursing certificate in the history of nursing section. Lets just say Microbiology, Statistics, and general Math skills were not a part of this program. It really is the humble beginnings of Formal Nursing Education. The two year nursing programs have not been around that long, relatively speaking.

I am a proud graduate ('84) of a diploma (it's "diploma," not "certificate") school of nursing, and you are seriously misinformed. It was certainly not a "quickie" program -- it was a three-year hospital-based program, and by "three year" I mean THREE CALENDAR YEARS -- 36 months (well, actually, 33 months -- we got two weeks off at Xmas and two weeks off during the summer each year). Admission was quite competitive, and the program was certainly not "a program to basicallly (sic) learn how to fold down bed corners, change bandages, and minor things that delicate females with feeble minds were capable of." The non-nursing courses were taught through a local university, and included a year of organic chemistry (our classmates were the university pre-med and chemistry majors), microbiology (yes!! imagine that!!!), and A&P, in addition to sociology, statistics/research, psychology, nutrition, and English composition. The nursing content included management, critical thinking, ethics, and professionalism (and the school did a much better job of teaching these concepts than the BSN completion program I eventually completed, or the ADN programs in which I've taught since then). The full-time faculty all had at least MSNs (some of the part-time clinical instructors "only" had BSNs -- most had MSNs). The program was very rigorous academically (again, much more so than any of the BSN or ADN programs I have had experience with over the years), and the school rarely dropped below a 99 or 98% pass rate on the NCLEX (we passed the same board exam everyone else did -- no one has been "grandfathered in" :uhoh21: ). In addition to the academic content, we spent several times the amount of time in clinical that either ADN or BSN students do -- we didn't observe a surgery or two; we had four days a week of clinical in the OR, six weeks of passing instruments and six weeks circulating. We didn't observe for a day in NICU and ICU; we had four days a week of clinical for six weeks in each. Etc., etc., etc. ... When we graduated, we were prepared to practice nursingin nearly any setting in which nursing was being practiced, which is quite a bit more than one can say for new graduates these days ...

Since then, I've completed a BSN (which I did only in order to get into graduate school -- it certainly did not teach me anything I didn't already know about nursing or make me a better nurse) and an MSN, and have taught nursing in a variety of settings in addition to my CNS practice. The longer I've been an RN and the more I've seen of nursing education, the more I appreciate what an excellent nursing education I got in my diploma school. I feel strongly that this is one of the (several) areas of nursing in which we've thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

So, if this diploma was such a wonderful, varied and in-depth form of education, why has it gone by the wayside?

Krisssy,

You missed my point! Being an RN who smokes, is obese, and of crankinees means that he/she cannot possibly serve as a credible role model/teacher to his/her patients in the name of promoting good health and well-being. In other words, healthcare providers must HEAL THYSELF before expecting to help heal anyone else.

Buttons:

Yes, this has everything to do with the original post by Pinoy: NP's basic charter is "holistic healthcare". Also, I have worked around many, many NP's and have yet to meet just one who smokes, is obese, or that has a really bad attitude. Many students are desiring to skip the tortuous journey of precept under the angry, cranky, obese RNs, to instead learn about being an NP. Afterall, why spend your time having a 50 year old nurse with a *"certificate of nursing" assigning you to empty urinals/reomve breakfast trays when your true interest is in learning about lab values...Go for it Pinoy, skip the RN hell and go directly to NP school!!

*Yes, there are many of these "RN"s who never even attended a two year program. They attended a quickie program, and were grandfathered in to the profession. They are usually not too happy to be guiding a BSN.

A couple of things concern me about your posts, brownrice.

One is your tendency to categorize people for the express purpose of discounting and then dismissing them. Regardless of your opinion about their life decisions, if you can't look past the externals and see that there are still people inside the "unworthy" shells, ultimately, you will be the one to lose out. I'm not suggesting that you have to embrace the negativity, only saying that you do them and yourself a disservice to write them off as useless or as merely obstacles in your way. Wise folk understand that the lowliest can teach something to the mightiest if a teachable spirit is present.

I wonder if you'll carry this condescending attitude into your practice. Will some patients feel the sting of your judgment and might that not make them decide they don't need the degradation? I'm guessing you either think patients are a different ball game or that you will be able to hide your the kind of feelings you've expressed above for those who smoke, overeat, get stressed out, etc. In either case, I'd caution you not to underestimate their radar. Most of us know when we are being disrespected. This is not a quality that inspires trust and cooperation.

On another front, your information regarding diploma nurses is way off base. Other posters have addressed this, so I'll just bring it up as one more example of your willingness to look upon others with contempt.

Could it be that attributes you possess (prejudice, condescension, an unhealthy kind of pride) might be speaking volumes to others and inviting some of the negativity you have received?

Regarding the original issue of whether or not NPs need experience as floor RNs, I can see both sides of the argument, probably because I don't have a dog in this fight. What I DO see is that no matter what your experience level, no matter what letters follow your name and no matter what schooling went into earning those letters, if you want to be a complete and competent practitioner, you must start with your heart and not with your head.

If you would lead, learn how to follow. If you would guide, learn how to respect. If you would heal, learn how to serve. If you would win the respect of your patients and co-workers, go beyond appearances and find a way to connect with the people inside the people. If you don't, you can have all the education in the world and still end up ignorant.

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