NO, NO, NO!!

Nurses General Nursing

Published

Different day, different crap.

Today I was screamed at by a patient for mentioning one of his admitting dx; syncope, GI bleed, acute renal failure. No one had mentioned the ARF, he assumed I had the wrong patient info. I didn't. Proceeded to explain that ARF is a common result of dehydration, a byproduct of his GI bleed. Said I would review chart for plan of care and clarify ARF dx. Patient (hysterically) not receptive to communication so I offered to contact MD to clarify. Exit.

Paged admitting doc x2 in a half hour - no call back in an hour. Got house MD who graciously came to talk with patient. He claimed patient requested nurses to come in and say "hi" and leave the "medicine speak" to the MD... Prior to the house MD being involved I paged the nursing sup to talk with upset patient, as I couldn't get an MD to call back (I've learned the hard way crap can be kicked up too). After doing so, her sage advice: page the doctor....

This is where it's gets good. Attending shows up late morning and wants to know why the patient, and 5 of his family members at the bedside, are under the impression that the patient has a diagnosis of ARF. Explain exchange with patient, show MD ER note enumerating ARF as part of DX and recite supporting lab values. (BTW he did return the page, as confirmed with his iphone, one hour later. No clerk to answer his call. I was blamed for that too.)

His response: "YOU need to fix THIS"!!!

REALLY? (THIS being the component of DX on record reflecting ARF.)

When will it end? Now the nurse is responsible for the diagnosis too (FWIW admitting lab values did support ARF)? No, No, No!

Never been one to doctor bash as I have the utmost respect for anyone who puts themselves through that process, regardless of the motivation. Now I'm changing my tune.

NO - can't change a diagnosis.

NO- won't support the fact that you, MD, didn't explain adequately to your A&Ox3 patient what was happening to him physiologically.

NO - don't subscribe to the harassment mentality predicated on nurses today.

Learned my lesson. Keep a smile on my face, speak when spoken to, it's a task oriented job, play dumb.

Got it. Take heed new nurses.

Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.

many, many years ago we were not even supposed to tell patients what their b/p was and "because the doctor ordered it" the common tag line. we moved passed that and began educating our patients to empower themselves to take charge of their healthcare. sadly, for reasons unbeknownst to me, we are reverting back to the "your doctor said so" baloney is making a come back. i made a joke once that the md was going to retailiate for makinf them look bad when nurses became empowered, practiced next to the md, and delivered better care......as usual i closer to the truth than i could have ever imangined.

https://allnurses.com/nursing-activism-healthcare/arizona-nurses-license-665799.html

as a result of the additional information given by ms. trujillo, the patient determined (pt) did not want to go through with the liver transplant evaluation or resulting transplant procedure. when the doctor treating the patient found out about the patient's wishes to forgo the evaluation he was unhappy that the patient had changed (pts) mind and determined that the education given by ms. trujillo was the underlying cause of the patient's change of heart. he accused her of going beyond her scope of practice by entering a physician order without permission ("ordering" the case management consultation). as a result of the accusation, ms. trujillo was placed on administrative leave by her nursing director, venus gaines, and was eventually terminated by webb

Ha ha ha, I love it. Just think of how this will revolutionize nursing. No more educating patients, discussing medications and side effects, or doing any patient care. We just have to go in and say "hi". I think I could handle that... might even pick up some overtime shifts.
I'm going to guess said MD became a doctor when Florence Nightengale was still nursing? LOL!
Specializes in Cardiac Care.

"Nurses to come in and say Hi and leave the medical speak to the doctors"

This is why we need a national campaign to educate the stupid people of this country about what nurses really do!

Specializes in Emergency & Trauma/Adult ICU.

While I agree that the physicians involved in this episode didn't communicate clearly, and the patient appears to have had the tendency to be difficult no matter what the circumstances ... most inpatients have 3-8 "diagnoses" that will likely resolve by treating the primary reason for admission and don't really need to be discussed as a separate course of treatment. It would be a rare scenario where I could see myself rattling off a list of 8 things to a patient or family member. I help them to understand and focus on the most pressing issues to the best of their ability and leave it at that.

It just makes me cringe to hear someone say that they will stop communicating and reduce him/herself to a task monkey.

Ha ha ha, I love it. Just think of how this will revolutionize nursing. No more educating patients, discussing medications and side effects, or doing any patient care. We just have to go in and say "hi". I think I could handle that... might even pick up some overtime shifts.

Yeah!!!! I think we should have NO liability either, hey, since we are forced to be MAs why should we have to take ANY responsibility for ANY OF IT.

Works for me :)

"It just makes me cringe to hear someone say that they will stop communicating and reduce him/herself to a task monkey." - ALTRA AllNurses GUIDE

Monkey? Who said anything about being a monkey? Oh, you did. The cheerleader for communication is a name caller! Perfect.

You might want to subscribe to my limited communication approach because you suck at communicating.

Wow, Listening to this really does freak me out. im starting nursing school, but speaking as someone who was diagnosed at 8 with type 1 diabetes it really astounds me how many of you would rather skim by on the job and do the bare minimum to explain to a patient a diagnosis or omit it completely until the MD shows up . Yes, i would also freak out if someone told me i had ARF. that is something serious and i can almost guanrantee in their mind they are thinking the will need a kidney transplant or possibly die even though with most cases of ARF that is not the case. Maybe its me but im someone who has always needed to know everything going on with my body, every 6 months i get my bloodwork and i go over it myself for any abnormalities my primary doesnt want to mention...which has happened before although after doing my own research and talking in great length with my endocrinologist it was nothing bad . that fact that she chose not to mention it really really ****** me off and i hate her now for it because she just passed the buck to my endo. ive been to the hospital only once since my diagnosis when i was 13 for ketoacidosis( my own fault it was Halloween ) and the nurses treated me like garbage, only coming in to change my IV pack and keep me awake for the night . maybe its my exp with other nurses who have treated me with little to no respect or care and with basic indifference to my feelings and questions i feel if you can answer and educate a little to someone who asks you a question about whats going on in their bodies you should if the MD wants to be a ******* and skip out. I know many of you will say i will change my tune when im working the hospitals and i get yelled at but as someone who has been in the hospital bed i can assure you that experience and the experiences with the nurses who treated me will guarantee i will never just go by and basically not tell the patient whats going in with them because its more convenient for me.... If you dislike your jobs that much and want to just get by stress free because you "play dumb" i suggest you go into another line of work because i know there are many other people who would gladly take your place and do a better job because they care and caring about the patient and making them feel as comfortable as possible regardless of how much a Pain in the ass they can be can make all the difference in the world for that patient whether you see it or not....

Specializes in Emergency & Trauma/Adult ICU.

PintheD, this whole episode has obviously upset you. If my use of the term task monkey offended you I am sorry.

In 3 or 4 different posts, you referenced being "task oriented", "keep a smile on your face and play dumb", "keep communication to a minimum and focus on the tasks", and "smile and nod". To be honest, I found these offensive. But I simply said that they made me cringe. I did not lash out at you.

Wishing you a better day the next time you go to work ...

yadi87,

You've got the OP (and the rest of us) entirely wrong.

If you decide to edu to become a nurse you will learn why.

The OP is angry that her attempt to inform/educate the patient was met by back-peddling and passing the buck by the MD. The OP (and the rest of us) went to college to become nurses. A nurse as part of practice is supposed to educate and keep the patient informed. But, the MD must give you the patient your diagnosis and important big info him/herself FIRST. RNs do not diagnose. The dust up that the OP describes might cause her to been seen by management in a less favorable light - this in no way has anything to do with her practice, which, was spot on. We nurses all know that it is very likely that the patient now believes, with a little inducement that the OP is a silly, uneducated ditz who really should not "pretend" to know about high-brow things like pathophysiology. FYI, the diagnosis in question was part of the information that all nurses see and are responsible for treating. If the MD decided he, or the ER made that diagnosis in error, it is in no way the RN's responsibility to change that diagnosis. RNs don't make diagnoses or revise diagnoses. The MD decided it was easier to let her take the idiot blame that was not hers, when, nobody should have been blamed.

Healthcare is full of people who will blame a nurse so that they can slip out a side door and still smell like a rose. The OP like all of us RNs tire of NOT being able to do our jobs due to being thwarted by others.

You will find that out soon enough. Also know that MDs are not watching your care when you are an inpatient like you think they are. In most hospitals they come in check on you (or not) maybe just your progress in the EMR and write new orders, or not. The EMR and just about everything about you that is in that EMR, is the nurse's responsibility. Your nurse totally runs your show. Pretty much, the MD will not know you croaked unless the nurse calls to let him know and documents it in the EMR.

Oh, Altra, I read the first sentence of your reply and started feeling all warm and fuzzy. Then I read the paragragh that followed...

Why are you offended by my mindset in approaching my job? Are you a bedside nurse? Specifically do you work med/surg, tele currently? The reason I ask is the job is all about tasks. In fact, the EMR generates a "TASK LIST" for each patient strictly for nursing use. By the time one completes all those tasks, passes meds and puts out a few fires guess what? It's time to go home.

My background is ICU where the nurse must have a clear clinical picture of his/her patients in order to do their job safely and effectively. Not so in this environment. Time does not allow and no one expects the nurse to think critically. The expectation begins and ends with completion of tasks - expectation of management, MD's, and based on my experience yesterday, I'm lumping patient's in there too. I have not arrived at this mindset out of apathy. It's survival. Does that make

sense?

Anyway, apology accepted. I, too, am sorry for my rude reply.

Specializes in I/DD.

Netglow I agree. I don't think anyone is arguing against patient education, that and advocacy are major parts of our jobs. The problem with medicine is that it is largely educated guesswork. A team of doctors get together and discuss what specific signs/symptoms could be, and what tests must be ordered to narrow the problem list down. As nurses, we are not in the position to tell a patient everything that COULD be wrong until we have a better idea of what really is wrong. It is overwhelming, scary, and can cause undue stress on a patient.

I need an example. A couple weeks ago I took care of a patient who had sudden numbness/tingling in the left side of her face, with a very slight facial droop. I immediately got a set of vitals, did a complete neuro exam, and grabbed the doctor. Did I tell that patient at the time that I was suspicious of a stroke? No, I told her that I was doing an exam so that I could gather enough information to present with the doctor. We shouldn't narrate every move to a patient who may not understand that a symptom could be caused by something as severe as a stroke or as minor as a side effect to a new medication. I guard my information until I am SURE about what is happening. I look through notes and/or collaborate with the team before entering a patient's room to educate them.

Sorry if that is a little off-topic from the original discussion. It is sad when you can't trust the physicians you work beside. Fortunately where I work it is pretty easy to spot the resident that is willing to use you as their scapegoat.

Specializes in CAPA RN, ED RN.

Sorry this happened to you PintheD, but I have always found patients and doctors who will be jerks. That doesn't mean the majority of the others are jerks. Speak your truth calmly and assertively or hold your tongue when the situation is right but don't be passive/aggressive. It is a victim stance.

I once had an MD call me over and over on the phone just to swear at me and tell me how awful I was. I couldn't even get a word in. He kept hanging up on me and then calling back. I just stared at the phone in disbelief each time. I still laugh about it. And yet I still answer the phone and talk to MDs in a professional manner today. However that MD no longer works at my facility. Hmmm, I wonder why.

Another consulting MD showed up while we were resuscitating a critical pt and started berating the team saying (among other things), "what a bunch of kindergarteners you guys are." I sidled up next to him and quietly said "We don't need that here right now." He immediately quit his rant and started working with the team.

Every situation is different but you get my drift. Don't play victim.

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