MA's please stop letting school practice on you !

Published

ok, i've been a nurse many years. back in the old days we were required to let other student practice on us (ng, bathing, shots etc...) but , we've came a long way baby !. i have talked with several ma students that are in school. one came in the the er with multiple echomotic areas and a couple red raised area's on her arms and butt. (that's not what she was there for though) . my friend who also whent to ma school went through the same thing. the schools in ohio are telling them it is required. ok, i'll give the schools a fair chance. i would say , if the student agree's and wants to find out what it feels like to poke another human, then ok. but being subjected to injections or 8 times a day including nacl injuctions is just wrong.(chance for abcesses, etc let alone the girl was sick and the other students uses all of her good veins) i told the students that injections are an invasive procedure and they have every right to refuse. seems the schools are holding their grade over their heads . they have told me the school says it's required. am i wrong or do these schools need a wake up call :angryfireas far as invasive procedures and pt rights. even in nusing school back in the stone age we didn't inject each other that many times. once and we were done.

We didn't hold their grades over their heads--they simply could not be certified in phlebotomy (part of the MA programs here) if they didn't have a certain amount of actual human blood draws-I think it was 70 sticks. They could practice on that pathetically worn out latex arm and get an A or a 100 in the class, but that doesn't mean anything as far as certification goes.

Since recruiting non-students (family, friends, strangers, etc) was a liability for the school, it was prohibited. And in order to get your 70 sticks, you'd have to be willing to hold out your arms just as many times to your fellow classmates.

The good news is that the students will be certified and have experience. The bad news is noone will hire them because they have track marks...........:uhoh3:

Seriously seventy sticks is a lot even over a 3-4 month period. I would be concerned about the prevalence of Community acquired MRSA and also long term damage to the veins. I am 31 and I have only had blood drawn no more than 20-25 times in my life.

Did a state agency come up with that requirement? If so that would explain it......

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in Urgent Care.

"in the old days"?? Our school (i'm almost done) requires the students to sign a consent about this practicing on each other the first day of class or you are gone. It is upfront in all the literature. Although I dont think anyone has received more than like 4 injections in one cycle (like a week, though you might get all four in one day)

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in Ante-Intra-Postpartum, Post Gyne.

When I went through MA school we were not allowed to practice on each other; something about the school not being covered for it. We had to have so many injections and blood draw to be certified, and since we could not practice on each other we had to do them on patients (we did of course have to stick oranges, injection pillows, and the squishy parts on the mannequins under the supervision of an RN a bunch of times first though); under the supervision of the MA I was shadowing. Since I was doing externship in a family practice I was not getting very many; the only girl in our class that was getting a lot of shots was stationed in a Pediatricians office giving immunizations. I ended up getting certified to give shots and draw blood through classes through the hospital taught by an RN.

Last semester in Nursing School we did injections on each other but only after we signed a release (without any pressure, it was TOTALLY optional to get stuck) and only after spending a few hours practicing on oranges and pillow things.

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in Volunteered in an ER.

First....do no harm.

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in orthopaedics.

we never ever practiced on each other. we learned the skill in learning lab. then we were able to practice on an annie arm. then when the situation arose during clinical that is when we got our actual practice time. never:nono: did we just practice on each other. maybe the ma cirriculum is different. i just can't see how it's cost effective for the school either.

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in High Risk In Patient OB/GYN.
So how much scar tissue did each student end up with?

From a 23g or 25g butterfly? None.

meownsmile, If you wonder what would happen if a student chose the instructor, you could have asked. I let several of my students take a stab at it (so to speak ;) ) on me. Of course I was selective as to who I allowed, but I was stuck about 10 times total for each session. I'm not sure what "rules" you think would change--the certifying agency would not change their requirements, and the clinical sites wouldn't start letting the students stick their pts.

Army Kitten-Just as some extra info-a MA here makes between $8-$12/hr on average (most being pain about $9-$10...the $12 is rare). That's roughly $21k/yr for a FTer. Benefits--including health, dental, sick time, vacation, etc. usually bite--when you get them, you pay a good amount. If you get your CPT, you can work for a hospital as a phlebotomy tech for around the same pay (I think where I work it's $11.15 to start), but with excellent benefits and union membership. You can also do home visits for ins. companies for extra money on the weekends/evenings. Also, a CPT can not only work at the Blood Center, but has the opportunity of taking a supervisory role there (blood center starts at $36-$38k/yr, depending on experience). That's a pretty significant pay difference.

I'D LIKE TO CLEAR THIS UP: I made a mistake--each student did not receive 70 sticks in a 3-6 month period. I feel silly, but now that I'm thinking about it, they were also allowed to recruit other students from the other classes (computer tech, CNA, other MA classes, etc), and believe it or not, plenty volunteered. The MAs mostly volunteered because they knew that it would be their turn to recruit in however many months (or conversely, that they had been recruiting months earlier). The computer tech people were mostly guys and I think #1 liked all the girlie attention, #2 liked to show how tough they were #3 were just nice guys (we got many "Yeah, my mom's a nurse-ya gotta practice somewhere!" and such).

On the last day the sticks were "due", we had a small party to draw in people. Anyone who offered up an arm or hand got munchins, coffee, cake, soda, chips, etc and a raffle ticket for a GC to TGIFridays. They also got out of their class for 30-45min. :)

Again, in my school they had the option. They could still pass the course and work as MAs. They just could not become a certified phlebotomy technician. (and again, we also did not do injections) I understand it's different in other places, and no, that's not fair.

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in nursery, L and D.

I have scars from the 30 or so sticks I have had in my lifetime, I find it hard to believe that some damage wasn't done to these students veins, or at least their skin. Although I understand what your saying, and that it is in the past tense, I don't understand why you insist that this is ok, KellNy. Things really can happen, and the school probably would be held liable, if something really bad happened (MRSA infect, etc) regardless of a signed waiver. Obviously, somewhere along the way, nursing schools, other MA schools, phleb programs, etc discovered practicing on each other wasn't a very good idea, came up with other ones, and moved on.

As in the OPs case, this girl had an infection, and had visible sticks on her, and it could have bought her a central line, if other sites were all "used up"...........practicing on each other, especially numerous sticks, is just a bad idea, IMO.

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in NICU Someday, I Hope.

Kind of nutty to demand so many punctures of each student. My poor wife is virtually unstickable. Nobody ever believes her until they start poking around. In the end they always go get the person who's been doing it forever. She could never survive such a demand from a school.

I was in the hospital and had a student nurse try to start an IV on me. I was young and she was cute so I was very motivated to be tough. After 4 tries in my hand with a couple of probing moves (and blood dripping down my hand at about the same rate as the sweat down her brow) I kindly said, "I think I have to ask you stop now."

I figure I've done my part for student education.

Up Vote Up Vote ×

I think 70 sticks is really too much. You only need a few to get the basic steps down, and after that its just experience and that should only come with clinical practice on patients.

I would like to say though that I wish my program allowed us to practice on each other at least once. They prohibit it (although a few students did circumvent this) and I think it would've helped me as I've only got 3 sticks in my clinical practice so far and I'm about to graduate.

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in High Risk In Patient OB/GYN.

I'm not sure that I ever said it was "okay". I said it's the way it works in many places, and that no one left with any visible harm (and no one treated for phlebitis/MRSA/etc). As far as blowing all the good veins, the class did phlebotomy every other day (M/W or T/Th), and the max number of sticks per day they could get was 2. It was their choice if they wanted to do less.

No clinical sites I've worked with (as an instructor) would allow the SMAs to do phlebotomy in their office. We'd have loved it if they could have (IMO it would have been much better for the students-they would have gotten less sticks on themselves, and they would have experienced many diff veins, tubes, personalities, etc). In fact, the school admin discouraged it (when I mentioned advocating with the externship sites) citing liability. It's all about $$ to those schools.

And again, there was no instructor on site at the externships. I wish there was, but while that set of students was doing their externships, I was starting with a new group (again, all about $).

Yes, it is past tense, but this is still going on. It's a sucky policy, one I wish were different, but as far as I know, there was nothing I, as a part time instructor, could have done to change it. It was a requirement of the certifying agencies. I already said I gave my students the choice, and no one failed a course for not doing actual sticks. And that I offered up my arm a number of times.

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in ORTHOPAEDICS-CERTIFIED SINCE 89.

That just seems barbaric. Hey I was a new to hospital RN I got a 2hr "iv course" and we were turned loose on the unit. Fast forward about 20 years when the hospital finds out that it's cheaper to fire the phlebs and have the RN/LPN draw the blood. We got the rubber arm, 45 minutes of inservice on the top colors of the corvacs and we were turned loose.

Now fortunately for my patients in that 20 years we'd all started a bazillion harder IVs. THEN Medicare stepped in and said they weren't paying a phleb fee if phlebs weren't drawing. Nurses are in with room and board remember? Phleb dept can charge. So we got our phleb back and all was right.....no it was still same ole, same ole hospital nursing.......

Up Vote Up Vote ×
+ Join the Discussion