MA's please stop letting school practice on you !

[time4meRN]

ok, i've been a nurse many years. back in the old days we were required to let other student practice on us (ng, bathing, shots etc...) but , we've came a long way baby !. i have talked with several ma students that are in school. one came in the the er with multiple echomotic areas and a couple red raised area's on her arms and butt. (that's not what she was there for though) . my friend who also whent to ma school went through the same thing. the schools in ohio are telling them it is required. ok, i'll give the schools a fair chance. i would say , if the student agree's and wants to find out what it feels like to poke another human, then ok. but being subjected to injections or 8 times a day including nacl injuctions is just wrong.(chance for abcesses, etc let alone the girl was sick and the other students uses all of her good veins) i told the students that injections are an invasive procedure and they have every right to refuse. seems the schools are holding their grade over their heads . they have told me the school says it's required. am i wrong or do these schools need a wake up call :angryfireas far as invasive procedures and pt rights. even in nusing school back in the stone age we didn't inject each other that many times. once and we were done.

[KellNY, RN]

Okay, by MA I'm assuming you're talking about medical assistants, right? I was an MA since I was 17, and taught medical assisting for a while, so maybe I can offer some perspective.

We didn't hold their grades over their heads--they simply could not be certified in phlebotomy (part of the MA programs here) if they didn't have a certain amount of actual human blood draws-I think it was 70 sticks. They could practice on that pathetically worn out latex arm and get an A or a 100 in the class, but that doesn't mean anything as far as certification goes.

Since recruiting non-students (family, friends, strangers, etc) was a liability for the school, it was prohibited. And in order to get your 70 sticks, you'd have to be willing to hold out your arms just as many times to your fellow classmates.

I let my students choose their parners, and usually, the best paired with the best, and the worst students were stuck just looking at each other. Fine. It worked out well for a number of reasons: The better students were okay practicing on each other with minimal supervision, and I was able to focus my teaching skills on the "less-confident" students--many of whom became very proficient. There were some of those students who were not willing to stick their arms out to ANYONE, and so only got to perform a few pity sticks. They were not elligable to sit for the CPT exam.

As for giving injections, I'm not sure one can even give NS injections without an order from a licensed practitioner, whether you're an MA, LPN, RN, etc. I do know, that at least where I am, MAs cannot inject any medications into another human. They haven't taken a pharm. course, they have no license, etc.

[kstec, LPN]

In my nursing program we used oranges for sub-q and IM injections and a hotdog to make a bleb for ID. Then we used our first experiences on our patients with our instructors close observation. Our school stopped doing injections on each other due to an infection someone acquired from practicing. I don't think its good practice and I would of refused just because I'm petrified of needles. Another good thing that I did was do a couple of flu clinics for an agency. By the end of my first flu clinic I was a pro. I've actually learned to give shots with little discomfort. I learned by watching the peoples facial expression while giving the injections and as time went on they were asking if that was it.

[crissrn27, RN]

The phleb course at the college I attended nursing school at lets the students draw on pts. Why can't you guys do that? NO ONE is sticking me 70 times........what if I had to get a stat IV? That is nuts. Our nursing program did the oranges/chicken/fake arm thing....then we moved on to real folks.

[Preemienurse23]

My nursing program wouldn't let us practice on each other. We used hot dog weenies for TB and sponges for IM, then in clinicals we used the pts. They told us it was too much of a liability to stick each other.

[KellNY, RN]

The phleb course at the college I attended nursing school at lets the students draw on pts. Why can't you guys do that? NO ONE is sticking me 70 times........what if I had to get a stat IV? That is nuts.

Well, we can't do that because MAs don't have supervised clinicals. They do an "externship" where they basically follow around an MA or bunch of MAs in an office for a few weeks and can do non-invasive things (BPs, assist with pap, EKGs, etc) and front office stuff (filing, answering phones, etc). At the end of each "shift" an office manager or MD or someone signs a paper saying that they student was there. At the end of the externship--and sometimes midway through--someone will give the student an evaluation.

No instructor is present during this externship, save for a 5 minute "pop in" once in a while. It's very different from a nsg program where you literally have your instructor standing over you, guiding you, etc.

And the 70 sticks was over the course of 3-6months.

[Kidrn911]

Okay, by MA I'm assuming you're talking about medical assistants, right? I was an MA since I was 17, and taught medical assisting for a while, so maybe I can offer some perspective.

We didn't hold their grades over their heads--they simply could not be certified in phlebotomy (part of the MA programs here) if they didn't have a certain amount of actual human blood draws-I think it was 70 sticks. They could practice on that pathetically worn out latex arm and get an A or a 100 in the class, but that doesn't mean anything as far as certification goes.

Since recruiting non-students (family, friends, strangers, etc) was a liability for the school, it was prohibited. And in order to get your 70 sticks, you'd have to be willing to hold out your arms just as many times to your fellow classmates.

I let my students choose their parners, and usually, the best paired with the best, and the worst students were stuck just looking at each other. Fine. It worked out well for a number of reasons: The better students were okay practicing on each other with minimal supervision, and I was able to focus my teaching skills on the "less-confident" students--many of whom became very proficient. There were some of those students who were not willing to stick their arms out to ANYONE, and so only got to perform a few pity sticks. They were not elligable to sit for the CPT exam.

As for giving injections, I'm not sure one can even give NS injections without an order from a licensed practitioner, whether you're an MA, LPN, RN, etc. I do know, that at least where I am, MAs cannot inject any medications into another human. They haven't taken a pharm. course, they have no license, etc.

That is about the scariest thing I ever heard:uhoh21:

[jojotoo, RN]

And the 70 sticks was over the course of 3-6months.

So how much scar tissue did each student end up with?

[ArmyKitten]

That isnt the ONLY way. I took the courses through my local Jr college and obtained my Phlebotomy certification back in 1999- and still hold the title of CPT even though I don't need it as an RN. We practiced on each other in class until we had the basics down (probably around 5 sticks each) and then we were sent to do "clinical" time at local labs. We were not supervised by instructors- we just helped out what ever lab tech was working at the time, and through a few hours each week we eventually obtained the # sticks we needed (I think back then it was 125?).

There must be labs/hospitals/sites willing to work with students so they do not have to practice that much on each other. 70 sticks per person? That is uncalled for. No way would I have let myself be stuck 70 times for a certification that doesn't even help someone obtain a higher pay grade.

[time4meRN]

okay, by ma i'm assuming you're talking about medical assistants, right? i was an ma since i was 17, and taught medical assisting for a while, so maybe i can offer some perspective.

we didn't hold their grades over their heads--they simply could not be certified in phlebotomy (part of the ma programs here) if they didn't have a certain amount of actual human blood draws-i think it was 70 sticks. they could practice on that pathetically worn out latex arm and get an a or a 100 in the class, but that doesn't mean anything as far as certification goes.

since recruiting non-students (family, friends, strangers, etc) was a liability for the school, it was prohibited. and in order to get your 70 sticks, you'd have to be willing to hold out your arms just as many times to your fellow classmates.

i let my students choose their parners, and usually, the best paired with the best, and the worst students were stuck just looking at each other. fine. it worked out well for a number of reasons: the better students were okay practicing on each other with minimal supervision, and i was able to focus my teaching skills on the "less-confident" students--many of whom became very proficient. there were some of those students who were not willing to stick their arms out to anyone, and so only got to perform a few pity sticks. they were not elligable to sit for the cpt exam.

as for giving injections, i'm not sure one can even give ns injections without an order from a licensed practitioner, whether you're an ma, lpn, rn, etc. i do know, that at least where i am, mas cannot inject any medications into another human. they haven't taken a pharm. course, they have no license, etc.

it's wounderful that your school doesn't hold grades over their heads but, all the ma's tell me the instructors tell them it's mandatory. they feel if they refuse school will be more diffucult for them. when i asked my friend what they were told to do if a pt refuses blood work. she said , the pt has every right to refuse. the schools have no exuses. sounds like they need a regulatory agencey such as board of nursing to protect the students. i wounder if a lawyer would have a case if my pt. went through more pain etc. due to increased pain due to veins lost from practicing students. i kinow there would be a suite if she developed an infection from the sticks. my friend also said that the instructor told them if you practice on each other you'll know how the pt's feel. i said, i work in er and open heart recovery, but i don't intubate other nurses or split chest walls open so they will know how the pt's feel.

[meownsmile, BSN, RN]

Good grief if a school told me i would have to take 70 sticks in order to get through a program id be outta there. Even a extremely ill patient doesnt undergo that many sticks in the course of an illness. There is usually a central line inserted and we draw from that. To insist someone undergo that torture to pass a class is as much as cruel and unusual punishment. We dont even put our incarcerated criminals through that.

Wonder what would happen if a student chooses an instructor? I somehow think the rules would change.

[ICRN2008, BSN, RN]

When I was in school for my clinical lab science degree, we drew specimens on fellow students a handful of times. However, we were allowed to refuse. We earned our phlebotomy certification by practicing on fake arms and then spending a week in an outpatient lab getting our "100 sticks". My first lab draw was on a 40ish man with garden hose veins; I was completely honest when he asked me how many times I had done phlebotomy before (I said "You're the first!"). I feel that requiring students to practice on each other is a liability for the school. There was one student in my class who couldn't hit the side of a barn much less a vein- there was no way I was letting her near me with a needle!