Mandatory Flu shots

PostOpPrincess, BSN, RN · Sep 7, 2009

Vaccinating HCP reduces mortality rates. This has been proven. Let me cite some research for you.
Influenza Vaccination of Health Care Workers in Long-Term-Care Hospitals Reduces the Mortality of Elderly Patients - Potter et al shows a decline in mortality rates.
Requiring influenza vaccination for health care workers: seven truths we must accept. - Poland et al. This shows that vaccination of HCP saves lives, and that HCP ignorance kills.
Vaccinating healthcare workers against influenza to protect the vulnerable--Is it a good use of healthcare resources?: A systematic review of the evidence and an economic evaluation. - Burls et al. This is an analysis of 18 seperate studys showing that the vaccine saves lives (and money).
Maybe institutions only care about the all mighty dollar that they save by reducing sick time or unpaid medicare bills of nosocomial influenza. Maybe they are all big jerks. That is errelevant. We as HCP have a duty to protect our patients. There is nothing I can do if you are unwilling to read the research or understand the pathophysiology of influenza. To me, unvacinated HCP are like parents not using a child safety seat. Its just not right.
There is a lot of research done on this topic. The general consensus is that the immunization of HCP saves lives. We are suposed to be evidance based providers of care. If you are against getting vaccinated, please take just a bit of time and educate yourself as to the consiquences.

Why are you arguing with me? I am not arguing the evidence. You are correct; I never said that--the evidence shows that HCPs should get vaccinated. What you are ignoring is that HCPS are PEOPLE. with CHOICES.

What you are missing is the FACTOR that the nurse is a HUMAN BEING WITH RIGHTS, although am a big advocate for HCPs getting their shots, I cannot, or will I participate in making it mandatory--regardless of the evidence.

We are dealing with PEOPLE--not just ONE group of people...MORE THAN ONE. Patients and HCPs are PEOPLE. All the evidence doesn't incorporate free choice. You'll have to figure out how to do that since you are so quick to judge those who choose not to have the shots.

Oh, and be my guest and move to Cuba where everything is mandatory. Fidel loves the "do this or else" attitude.

You will fit right in.

amms · Sep 8, 2009

In a nut shell, the issue at hand is not whether or not the vaccination is beneficial, the issue is FORCING vaccinations. Like mentioned by myself and others, why is our AUTONOMY being taken away? If we as nurses are receiving the vaccination, does that not make us the patient? Patients have the RIGHT to choose their treatments, not their employer, doctor, or anyone else for that matter. As nurses, is it not our responsibility to ensure the autonomy of our patients as well as advocating THEIR decisions, not anyone else's? If you agree, then you must realize that when nurses are receiving vaccinations or are considering them, as a nurse you must respect their decision (the patients, and in this case he/she happens to be a nurse) to do what they feel is best for themselves. If you don't then you obviously don't practice what you preach.

DuluthMike · Sep 8, 2009

In a nut shell, the issue at hand is not whether or not the vaccination is beneficial, the issue is FORCING vaccinations. Like mentioned by myself and others, why is our AUTONOMY being taken away?

Autonomy ends when it kills another human being. Why is being made mandatory? Likely because of medicare reimbursement of nosocomial infections and law suits. Does it matter that the drive behind this is likely a monetary one? No.

I will pose this question, does a symptomatic nurse have a right to work with a vulnerable population?

RuRnurse? · Sep 9, 2009

"I will pose this question, does a symptomatic nurse have a right to work with a vulnerable population?"

Now Mike, you have introduced a red herring here...I don't think anyone for a nurses right to refuse this new, untested vaccine is arguing that that nurse should go into work if he/she is symtomatic! But, nice try, though...

I will not take this new and untested vaccine, not this year, anyway. If the vaccine truly does no harm, then we will soon know that, won't we? If, on the other hand, it causes problems, like the swine flu vaccine of the 70's did, then we will also know that. But just because someone works in health care, does not mean they should be unwilling guinea pigs for a drug manufacturer who MAY have been convinced to release a vaccine quickly for political reasons. (And who, I understand, may have been released from liability...)

Yes, political reasons. Anyone who honestly believes that this hurried vaccine is being produced for strictly altruistic reasons is simply naive! Our "hard-working" politicians are desperately trying to avoid the fallout that a nasty flu season will produce, especially after all the hoopla over this new flu. So, a vaccine MUST be made available. Whether it is safe or not, or even actually WORKS is irrelevant at this point. Students of influenza history will perhaps remember that during the great pandemic of 1918, a 'faux vaccine' was made available in Boston and Philadelphia, simply to avert panic and convince the populace that "something" was being done! Thanks, but no thanks!

As things stand with this flu right now, it seems that it has greater effects on the young and healthy. The classic signs of a new infection. The younger ones have not been exposed to this type of virus, so it runs wild. Older ones have been exposed to more viruses, and so have greater immunity. This is the way that infections work. No need to go "nuts" and start calling for "mandatory" anything!

I guess my point here is that infection will ALWAYS be with us. How we react to it will determine how effective any course of action will be. Our "hurry" to DO SOMETHING ends up causing more problems than it solves. How many of us are old enough to remember trips to the pediatrician when we were young...taken there by Moms who didn't think the doctor was DOING ANYTHING about their child's illness unless they went home with the ubiquitous bottle of pink medicine? You know, that antibiotic you had to keep in the fridge? Even though most respiratory infections are viral in nature, you got the antibiotic anyway...Today, we have bacterial infections on steroids, MRSA, VRE, and others, who basically laugh at whatever we throw at 'em, cause they have "been there, done that, got the tee-shirt..."

The doctor's at my nursing home still do this. Prescribe an antibiotic BEFORE the culture even comes back, just in case. How frickin' STUPID! There are residents where I work who basically have NO immune systems left after years of this crap! They should be living in plastic bubbles, for chrissakes! Any nasty virus or bacteria comes around, these folks are TOAST!

Infection will always be with us, some will get sick and recover, some will die. The ones that survive have a "body memory" of the agent, and develop immunities, and the illnesses that cause horrible death today will become the minor childhood illnesses of the future. Those are the FACTS people! But, if medicine continues to try and prevent EVERY illness, we will soon end up with a VERY BIG PROBLEM that the most advanced medicine will not be able to solve.

So, no vaccine for me. I am older, and I know I have been exposed to numerous flu agents over my lifetime. I rarely get sick. But when I do, I ride it out. At the age of 50, I can count the number of times I have "needed" an antibiotic on the fingers of one hand. No, I will NOT go to work if I am sick, and hope that others will make this wise choice. But I will NOT be forcibly injected with ANYTHING that I am not 100% comfortable with, period. If that means I can't work as a nurse, then do without me.

HonestRN · Sep 9, 2009

I will pose this question, does a symptomatic nurse have a right to work with a vulnerable population?

No. A symptomatic nurse should not be working with vulnerable populations. Of greater concern to me however is the infected nurse who is asymptomatic but can be shedding the virus and putting co-workers and vulnerable populations at risk.

RuRnurse? · Sep 9, 2009

Your "infected nurse" is shedding virus and etc every day. Our emphasis should be on helping the individuals effected by illness, instead of trying to prevent it altogether. Infection is a fact of life. There is actually a school of thought that thinks our cellular mitochondria may be signs of primordial infection. Mitochondria is an invasive agent in the animal cell, has it's own DNA, but is necessary for the cell to sustain complex life. Just like chloroplasts in plant cells that do photosynthesis. You can treat certain plant cells with streptomycin and "cure" them of their chloroplasts, but they will be unable to photosynthesize, and die. The old infectious agent has become necessary for survival.

Medicine should be more focused on our living with infectious agents. They don't WANT to kill us...they NEED us to survive. And we/they can survive much better if we understand the rules...

allnurses Guide · Sep 9, 2009

Our emphasis should be on helping the individuals effected by illness, instead of trying to prevent it altogether.

Wow.. that goes against everything I ever learned in every Health Promotion class I ever took.... Almost all of the leading actual causes of death are preventable - NOT preventing them and taking a "wait and see" attitude is craziness. In that case, we shouldn't tell people to stop smoking, we should just treat the lung cancer and heart disease it causes...

BittyBabyGrower, MSN, RN · Sep 9, 2009

We were told yesterday that if we didn't get the vaccine, which is 2 shots by the way and they have no idea if a second one is really needed, then we will be fitted with one of those god-awful masks and you will be required to wear it while at work. Lord...I'd die in that mask for 12 hours. There is also not going to be a preservative free one...and I am allergic to thirmosel...get a huge wheal and itch like mad, but I guess I will be sucking down benydrl and taking it and hoping I don't get a different reaction to it. They want us to get the flu vaccine at the same time...I said no way, I'll take them one at a time, but not two at a time. Forget that.

indigo girl · Sep 9, 2009

We were told yesterday that if we didn't get the vaccine, which is 2 shots by the way and they have no idea if a second one is really needed, then we will be fitted with one of those god-awful masks and you will be required to wear it while at work. Lord...I'd die in that mask for 12 hours. There is also not going to be a preservative free one...and I am allergic to thirmosel...get a huge wheal and itch like mad, but I guess I will be sucking down benydrl and taking it and hoping I don't get a different reaction to it. They want us to get the flu vaccine at the same time...I said no way, I'll take them one at a time, but not two at a time. Forget that.

You should not have to take anything that you are allergic to. That could be dangerous.

Not to worry, you can get a thimerosal free version even if your workplace does not offer it. It will be available in single dose syringes without the additive. Finding it may be a challenge. At any rate, you have until mid-October when it comes out, to track down where you can get it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/29/AR2009072903607_2.html?sid=ST2009072903827

Some of the vaccine will be stored in multi-dose vials containing thimerosal, an antibacterial additive that contains mercury. But there will also be single-dose syringes without thimerosal, a substance that some assert is harmful to children.

RuRnurse? · Sep 9, 2009

I don't think that is exactly what I said...We try and prevent what we can prevent, but it can't always be done. Coming to a realistic expectation regarding illness/infection is more the way to go, in my opinion...

And, of course I would counsel against smoking, or other behaviors...but those are common among people. Rather than adopting the "persimonous lips" attitude (which just ****** people off..), why not just 'love-bomb' them with the truth...facts...etc? Most people will adjust in a positive way...

And, btw, NONE of the causes of death are 'preventable'...it happens to ALL of us, regardless of behavior, at some time or other. Our time will no doubt come at an inconvenient moment-unrelated to our behavior, or maybe not-maybe we will die of old age, maybe not...maybe quick, maybe not...but it will come.

I think I just prefer to be realistic. It may sound cold, but it's really not...

And, never mind the "Health Promotion Class" bs... if "Almost all of the leading actual causes of death are preventable", well then, MOST OF US WOULD BE ALIVE, wouldn't we!? And, we're not, are we? No...most of the people who have ever lived are dead... So, what does this tell you?...God!

kemper1974 · Sep 10, 2009

well, by waiting to get sick, I mean the after effects of the shot.... to quote one medical site *flu shots can commonly cause mild side effects fever, muscle aches, and malaise or simply not feeling well*
and one reason I ask, and one reason our hospital nurses are a bit up in arms over this, is considering we are a very small hospital.... abotu 20 Med Surg Ped beds, with a census of about 12 average... we had a case several years ago of a person in the community that was also related to several of our nurses (inbred North Country Folk that we are) who got Guillain-Barré after the Flu shot. he died in our hospital.
Now since the flu shot that seemed to cause the Guillain-Barré syndrome is the old Swine flu vaccine... I would not get the H1N1 vac. the flu shot they mandated at the hospital this year was the regular flu vac.... but if we cave to this.... will next year they demand everyone get the H1N1.... I know they say Guillain-Barré is 1 in a million...but when it happens on your floor, to a family member of co-workers. that seems closer than that 1 in a million stat they throw arround.

*******

My husaband got Guillane Barre after surgery last year. He is no longer independent after 16 weeks in the icu and rehab.

I am currently starting my second round of chemo (rituxan) I got my dose Wednesday. I can get the regular flu shot 4 weeks after my next dose on 9/24. I am not to take the swine flu vaccine at all, per my primary and my rheumatologist ( the chemo is for Rheumatoid arthritis) They have not said at work that is is mandatory yet, but I have been advised to take FMLA if I can't work without it. In the meantime, they need to start checking people who come in the building. We have sent 8 visitors off the OB unt because they were ill. 2 tested positive for swine flu....

WalkieTalkie, RN · Sep 10, 2009

I just got my regular flu shot today. I'll be one of the first in line to get the H1N1 when it's available.