Mandatory Flu shots

peeksnan · Sep 13, 2009

As health care providers we are subjected to the risk of infection on a daily basis, we chose this profession and it comes with the territory. That being said,we should also have the right to choose what is injected into our bodies. and not be mandated into guinea pigs. I too oppose any forced vaccinations on health care personnel

peeksnan · Sep 13, 2009

In response to DuluthMike regarding the mandatory flu vaccination, I don't think the issue is a little stick, it is the loss of our basic right to freedom of choice, a very scary prospect

RuRnurse? · Sep 14, 2009

Yes, very scary! I read a post here that was good, but can't find it...to paraphrase, it said basically that we are HCW until they stick that needle into our arms, then we become PATIENTS. And patients have the right to refuse treatments or medications without fear of reprisal.

And, of course, common sense must prevail. No nurse should go into work while sick, and anyone refusing to be vaccinated may be required to wear a mask during the outbreak. That isn't onerous, and shouldn't be a big issue. I'll be happy to wear the mask.

damegarbo · Sep 15, 2009

The mass hysteria with the flu and now possible forced innoculations rings of tyranny to me. The Orwellian mentality is very disconcerting indeed. How willing some are to go along like lambs to the slaughter. I am NOT saying those who personally want the flu shot are like lambs to the slaughter, so don't even go there. I am saying that the mindset, by agreeing to a MANDATE FOR ALL, is where that analogy is intended... Making that choice for everybody, especially based on fear, is not of the country I was raised. Be careful about so willingly giving up your personal freedoms, as giving up your rights is insidious, a little at a time until we are in a nation that resembles our communist and fascist counterparts. Be aware and wary. This is MY body, PERIOD. I have human rights. Personally, can you believe I have worked fulltime with consistent overtime on a very busy surgical unit and have not called off sick for over 6 years? My point is that I am a healthy individual with my lifestyle as evidenced by my work record. I must be doing something right. For the person talking about EVIDENCED based practice, this is for you. My personal choice is that I have never taken the flu vaccine while some others that have, still did get sick with the flu. So, that blows the evidence out the window doesn't it? Another thing, I cannot work with a mask on for twelve hours, nobody can, it's INHUMANE. I feel it's like wearing the star of David, in a sense. Gosh, we have so many 'good little citizens', just willing to comply without question...

I have so many concerns over this as a MANDATE that I know we are on the precipice of losing our freedoms. It is VERY American to ask questions and if you don't question, you are NOT being American. If you agree with an Orwellian society as in the book '1984', by George Orwell, then you don't question or you are AFRAID to question. The mentality in that society, which we might be headed to is: 'War is peace, freedom is slavery, and ignorance is strength.' Please everyone, let's take a deep breath and really calm down. Fear based thinking is so dangerous. Let's exercise some common sense.

llg, PhD, RN · Sep 15, 2009

For the person talking about EVIDENCED based practice, this is for you. My personal choice is that I have never taken the flu vaccine while some others that have, still did get sick with the flu. So, that blows the evidence out the window doesn't it?

No, it doesn't. There are so many holes in that logic that it would take pages to explain them all.

To start with:

1. People say they have "the flu" when they have any one of a number of viruses.

2. A lot of people get the actual influenza who show very minor symptoms and may not identify themselves as having had the real influenza.

So ... you can't believe what people self report on that topic. What people say about that topic is not reliable evidence that can be used to make that point.

3. Vaccination has never been touted as a guarantee that you will not get the flu. The influenza virus has geat ability to mutate quickly and frequently. The good news is that the partial immunity imparted by the (seasonal) vaccine can help minimize the serious of cases in those people who have received the vaccine of the most common strains within the community at large. That's why it is believed that older people are seemingly a little resistent to this current H1N1 strain - they have a partial immunity developed in previous years to related versions of the virus.

RuRnurse? · Sep 15, 2009

damegarbo and llg, great posts!

dame, you are spot-on as far as the hysteria over this flu goes...we are definitely making very hasty decisions here, based not upon actual facts, but on fear. Many will take this new and untested vaccine. Maybe, (hopefully) there won't be a problem. If not, then perhaps in a year or two I may accept it myself.

But what if there is? What if this hastily thrown-together vaccine DOES have side effects? Once that needle is in your arm and the plunger goes down, that's it. You have it, for better or worse. As for wearing the mask, you are right, I could not wear it for 12 straight hours. But wearing it for the time you are in direct patient contact is not particularly onerous, we do that for certain infectious diseases anyway. I've had ones who required us to gown, glove and mask (with eyeshield) before entering the room. A pain in the butt, but necessary.

And llg, you are also right, you can't rely on what people self-report. I work with people who insist that the flu vaccine gave them the flu, even though that is not physically possible. (Flu vaccine does NOT contain live virus) They got a different strain, or a cold, etc, and blame the vaccine. And, many more get the actual flu virus, and either don't even know it, or get such minor symptoms they don't make the connection. But, that being said, there are still effects from ALL medications, including vaccines. Most are not significant clinically, but there is always the exception...

I get the annual flu shot. It's an old, tested vaccine. I'm comfortable with getting it. Same with the other old stand-bys, the MMR, the Tetorifice, etc. Had Tetorifice vaccine been developed 3 months ago in response to media-generated hysteria, I would NOT choose to recieve it. Same with the swine flu vaccine.

So, for this nurse, there will be no "mandatory" vaccination. I will wear a mask while in direct patient contact, if that is what my employer wishes. Or, they can lay me off for flu season altogether, in which case I'll stay home and collect unemployment.

damegarbo · Sep 15, 2009

I wanted to clarify my comment on evidenced based, as far as people 'reporting' they had the flu after getting the vaccine. Yes, it doesn't hold water etc.... as far as hard fact. It was more of a personal observation that I had experienced and debated over the pros and cons of the vaccine over the years... Aaahhh, I pine for the days when this was considered an option. I'm sorry, but these evidenced based 'studies' should not be taken as gospel either to warrant a mandate. As far as the masks, I think they will be impossible if they need to be used at all times, even out of direct patient care, as I have read they might be. Not to mention if we have to take them off and on all day between patient rooms. It will be inhumane if those are the conditions. I guess I'll see what comes down soon, but my prior posting stands, with my evidenced based comment amended, to a degree. So, again I say, mass hysteria is on the horizon and with that, a fear based thinking which can foster inappropriate decisions and mandates that are imperative to question.

caroladybelle, BSN, RN · Sep 16, 2009

Another thing, I cannot work with a mask on for twelve hours, nobody can, it's INHUMANE.
I feel it's like wearing the star of David, in a sense. Gosh, we have so many 'good little citizens', just willing to comply without question...
I have so many concerns over this as a MANDATE that I know we are on the precipice of losing our freedoms.
Please everyone, let's take a deep breath and really calm down. Fear based thinking is so dangerous. Let's exercise some common sense.

First, "nobody can work with a mask on for 12hours".....I have news for you ....me, my coworkers and many of my patients do that on a daily basis. And as for patients that work in the public sphere, in many places that does not mean a plain surgical mask, it means an N95. Heck, I have hiked blocks and blocks, been on subways, run for the bus and explored a deserted ID facility for hours in an N95. I have spent hours with critical pts in gown, gloves and a battery operated respirator. It isn't my favorite thing, but it is part of what I do.

"It's like wearing a star of David".......uhhhh, no it's not remotely like wearing a star of David. First are you referring to religious jewelry or are you referring to the yellow star sewn on clothing of/posted on those of Jewish heritage and used to target them for abuse, discrimination, and ultimately, extermination? If you are referring to the former, I don't get it as one chooses that, and if you are referring to the latter, that is a very offensive comparison.

You are comparing being requested to wear a mask to protect vulnerable patients from possible illness as being part of a health care organization to being required (with no other options whatsoever) to wear something that automatically targets one for abuse, discrimination, and ultimately being destroyed. Trust me, it isn't remotely the same thing. You have the option of working with a less vulnerable population. The people that were forced to wear the yellow star had no choice. in most cases.

You are expressing concern about all this fearmongering, but then do some fearmongering yourself about losing freedom. You will still plenty of freedom, to work for many employers, to be vaccinated or not and wear a mask or not, or work with a less vulnerable population. When you made the CHOICE to become a healthworker, this came with some responsibilities. If you have difficulty with that that choice, there are others that you can make.

Circejane · Sep 16, 2009

I was going to post, but caroladybelle said it so well that I can only give kudos. :yeah:

tachybradyRN · Sep 17, 2009

At my hospital [and I suppose within our respective health system], they've made it mandatory for all employees with direct patient care to get not only a flu shot but also the H1N1 vaccine. I'm not sure I'm too happy about that.

Serenyd · Sep 17, 2009

I got the flu shot once and was sick for 5 months afterward. Of course it is an inactive virus but it can still deplete your immune system... I got EVERYTHING else. I had a new virus every 2 weeks! I got the flu last year and was sick for 2 weeks period. I think I'd rather take my chances!

Both years I took the flu shot, I got horribly sick with a respiratory illness afterwards. The second time I had bronchitis for weeks and my doctor ended up putting me on steriods and an inhaler. Since I caught on to what was happening, I haven't taken the flu shot. That was four years ago, and the only thing I've been to see my doctor for since was a couple UTIs. I'm not trashing my immune system by taking 3 flu vaccines back to back! My hospital is trying to make them mandatory, but they still want us to sign a permission slip to take them ... what gives?

Mike Lee · Sep 17, 2009

Flu shot is poison, contains mercury to be specific. And it does not protect you from flu because flu virus is constantly changing and vaccine never matches to the current virus. I will never take it even if they make it mandatory. It is still volanteer in my hospital. Few years ago I told my doc I am allergic to flu shot just in case if they make it mandatory. So I think I am well protected from fllu shots. Flu cannot kill you if you are healthy and if you are immunocompromized flu shot will not save you: millions of dangerous bacteria surrounds you, not onnly flu virus. So if you have decided not to get flu vaccine let those who chose to submit to brain washing not make you feel guilty