manager refusing comp time, and other issues

[Dean7]

Hello everyone,

First of all thanks in advance for any input anyone gives. I'm writing here to see if anyone else has experienced this, and if it's right or wrong or if anything can be done.

Our director for med/surg is refusing to give us comp time. He outright said "I'm not giving any of you comp time, I am not signing for it. You are not efficient with your work, that is why you are not finishing on time. I was told we are giving too much comp time." I heard the director came out of a budget meeting and I guess the hospital is having budget issues, and supposedly they are trying to cut back by not giving anyone comp time. However, I see this as unfair.

This is a tele unit, 28 bed, and we frequently have a patient load of 5-7 patients and they are high acuity (a lot of them require two people to clean them, a lot of them are very sick, need transfusions, oxygen, can't feed themselves, are on IV's, there are a lot on insulin, a lot of high fall risk patients) and we are frequently short on CNAs to help with the care (that or the cnas don't want to work together to change patients and ask for us to do time consuming 20 minutes long bed baths when we are already drowning in work and have a ton of meds and other things to do). Everyone is entitled an hour break, but usually we only eat for around 10 minutes and have to get back to work or else if we will have to stay after work for 2 hours finishing documentation. Not many people dare to claim comp time (time we can use that can add up to a paid day off) because we feel it will "look bad." Sometimes the manager has said "everyone should be getting their full hour lunch. There is no reason you shouldn't." Well the reality of the situation is if we take a full hour lunch, the other people covering for us will be drowned by taking care of not just their patients, but our patients as well (imagine being responsible for 12-14 needy patients including your own while covering another nurse on lunch), and we will end up having to stay late to finish up our paperwork.

On average, everyone stays after work an hour after their paid shift ends, finishing up paperwork. Nobody has been sitting around the nurses station talking or doing anything near wasting time. Everyone has pretty much been busy the entire shift. Being busy the entire shift, taking only a bit to swallow down our food and then get back to work, we still finish an hour late on average, sometimes it is longer, 2 hours. I have heard we used to have 5 nurses on this 28 bed tele unit, but there are only 4 nurses. In addition, nurses have to take turns being the charge nurse, which adds additional responsibilities on top of having a heavy patient load.

I feel that the director refusing to give us comp time is wrong. Is it illegal too? Should we go to the union (though I feel like the union representative will reveal who is the complainer because I have heard that she would tell the director who lodged the complaint and never keep it anonymous)? Or can this be reported to the labor board? The director also says we must email him to explain exactly WHY we are asking for comp time. It is not adequate enough to have simply the covering ADN sign for our comp time even if she sees us working late after our shift ends. I feel like this is bullying or a type of intimidation or a way to deter us from claiming comp time, as if we ask for it, he will make us explain the details, as if we are begging him for comp time. It's almost like humiliation and I feel that it is a way to question us and shame us and try to get us to believe "if only I worked faster or were superhuman then I could have done it all and been out by the end of my shift." What do you think?

Also, does anyone here work on a tele unit with high acuity patients (a lot of bedcare patients, who can't walk, and such)? What is your nurse:patient ratio?

I am feeling very frustrated and demeaned in this kind of hostile workplace environment. I feel not valued as an employee and if feels as if management sees us as work rats to use and abuse and that they just care about looking good as a director and keeping the budget good.

Thank you for your opinions!!

[lmccrn62, MSN, RN]

First off, you must be paid for all time work and if you don't get a lunch they must pay you for that as well. They are violating labor laws.

As far as ratios. Check AACN standards for progressive care I believe the standard is 1:4.

Good luck!

[Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN]

If you ahve a union you need to go through them first. I am shocked they (they union) allows this. File a grievance.

[Ruas61, BSN, RN]

It is illegal.

One major LTC organization has a major lawsuit in progress for not paying for worked lunches or hours after the shift officially ended. People punching out and coming back to finish their work.

Good luck.

[Nurse Leigh]

Is this a salaried position? If it is hourly, I cannot see how this is possibly legal. I know salaried positions have different rules though.

[Dean7]

Thanks for your replies everyone. It has a set yearly salary with differentials depending on how many years experience and such. It is not per diem.

[classicdame, MSN, EdD]

In situations like this I have voted with my feet -

[Ruby Vee, BSN]

Thanks for your replies everyone. It has a set yearly salary with differentials depending on how many years experience and such. It is not per diem.

If it's salaried, they don't have to pay you overtime (or give you comp time) for staying at the end of the shift to complete your charting.

Your boss has a right to know how you are spending the time when you ask to be paid above your shift. That's not bullying, harrassment, intimidation or humiliation. That's knowing what you're paying for. If you're staying late because you had a change of shift code or admission, that's one thing. But if you're habitually staying late to finish your charting, that is something else again. If EVERYONE is staying late to finish their charting, that's something management needs to know. The work has outgrown the shift, and they need to look at ways to change that. But if it's just you and a few others -- they need to know that, as well -- but perhaps you need to work on your time management skills.

[Here.I.Stand, BSN, RN]

I'm confused, are you paid hourly or on salary? (I've never heard of a floor nurse being on salary). Initially it sounds like hourly b/c you're asking to be paid for the two hours or whatever that you've stayed over.

Yes, do what you can to manage your time. Even if it means not doing everything that in a perfect world you'd like to do for your pts. But if you are down to doing only the bare minimum, not socializing, working as fast as you can w/o being shoddy, and having to choose between taking lunch and staying late... and still being told that you're expected to do extra work for free, I've got three words. Department of labor.

[Dean7]

If it's salaried, they don't have to pay you overtime (or give you comp time) for staying at the end of the shift to complete your charting.

Your boss has a right to know how you are spending the time when you ask to be paid above your shift. That's not bullying, harrassment, intimidation or humiliation. That's knowing what you're paying for. If you're staying late because you had a change of shift code or admission, that's one thing. But if you're habitually staying late to finish your charting, that is something else again. If EVERYONE is staying late to finish their charting, that's something management needs to know. The work has outgrown the shift, and they need to look at ways to change that. But if it's just you and a few others -- they need to know that, as well -- but perhaps you need to work on your time management skills.

Ruby,

If you have read my post carefully, you will see that I have mentioned in my post that everyone stays after on average for an hour after the shift ends. Your reply suggests you have not thoroughly read my post. I also mentioned that there used to be 5 nurses on tele, and it's now just consistently just 4 nurses. I also mention about us just swallowing down food quickly and getting back to work, only get a fraction of our entitled break time. It's a case of the work load is too much and we need another nurse. Re-read my post. The reply almost sounded like something that I would get from the manager, so I sense bias and lack of sympathy for overworked nurses. Here is another quote of what I wrote in my orignal post: " On average, everyone stays after work an hour after their paid shift ends, finishing up paperwork. Nobody has been sitting around the nurses station talking or doing anything near wasting time. "

I also mention in my post that the ADN already signs the comp time, if one of them sees us working late. We explain to the ADN why we need comp time. To clarify, the director is now asking us to also send him an email explaining why we need comp time, is a new loop he is making us jump through. Previously we simply explain to the ADN covering, and she signs it if she feels it is a valid reason. What's next? We will have to email the CNO and explain to her why we are requesting comp time? Next thing we will be labeled incompetent and troublemakers, an easy way to target us for standing up for ourselves. It's an easy scapegoat reason, for management to claim the worker is lacking time management skills when in reality there needs to be more staffing on the floor. It's an abuse of employees and immoral too.

Reflecting on this situation, I think people who might have been managers lose sight of what it is like to work on a floor, or simply have not had medsurg/telemetry experience, been overloaded daily, and don't know what it feels like and how unsafe it is and how it makes for a quick burnout. The director of our unit does not come from a med/surg nor tele experience background, so perhaps that is why he is unsympathetic or reasonable and does not understand what we are all going through on this unit.

[Dean7]

I'm confused, are you paid hourly or on salary? (I've never heard of a floor nurse being on salary). Initially it sounds like hourly b/c you're asking to be paid for the two hours or whatever that you've stayed over.

Yes, do what you can to manage your time. Even if it means not doing everything that in a perfect world you'd like to do for your pts. But if you are down to doing only the bare minimum, not socializing, working as fast as you can w/o being shoddy, and having to choose between taking lunch and staying late... and still being told that you're expected to do extra work for free, I've got three words. Department of labor.

Here.I.Stand,

Thanks for your reply. We work 37 hours a week and receive a flat yearly base pay (in the 60's). There are differentials for night shift and years of experience. I believe that is overtime?

They give us comp time, which isn't a check we get in or extra money we earn. Comp time can be used as hours that accumulate. If we are ten minutes late due to traffic or whatever, we can use ten minutes of comp time to avoid being paid less for working 10 minutes less than our 37 hours due to lateness, for example. Comp time can also be used if we are sick one day, and only have a few paid sick hours left, so we use the comp time to ensure we have a paid sick day if we ran out of sick days, for example. We can also use comp time to pay for a scheduled vacation day or for a doctor's visit day when we need to take off. I hope that explains it.

We have been doing everything to manage time. We are rushing pretty much the entire shift. There's a ton of stuff. We usually choose to scarf down our food in five minutes to taking a full break, as we know that we will have even more paperwork and meds and discharges and admission notes to finish. It keeps snowballing.

[HouTx, BSN, MSN, EdD]

Very interesting. I have never encountered an organization in which CNA staff is salaried. This is obviously very beneficial to the employer, but sucks big time the staff. BTW, overtime means working beyond 40 hours per week (FLSA law) not additional compensation associated with working a particular shift.

I think that Ruby was trying to make a point about the clear distinction between exempt and hourly worker classifications - as outlined in FLSA (Federal Law). Truly exempt staff don't get overtime. However, there is also a 'test' to determine whether a position is truly considered exempt or not... and it does not seem that the work described by the OP meets the exempt test. If not, an employment attorney could fix this situation. That's probably the OP's best option.