Management Progression Assistance

Nurses General Nursing

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Hello! I have been an RN for 11 years. I have spent the past 7 years working full-time as a nursing professor. I have my BSN and MSN (nursing education) and I am finishing up my EdD in healthcare leadership. My long-term career goal is a Chief Nursing Officer or Chief Nurse Executive. I have not worked as a bedside RN for the past few years outside of contingent in the Summer (off work as a professor), but I do take students to the hospital for clinical, teach in the skills lab, and teach in the classroom. I also work as a contingent clinical educator for a local health system. I'm also involved in committee leadership, mentoring, and research. Given my upcoming graduation, I decided to look into jobs to transition into a leadership role within the hospital setting. Basically, they do not consider my doctorate degree as any experience or leg up nor do they consider my academic leadership experience as relevant. I have been told by all recruiters that I would need to start at the beginning -- go back to a bedside nurse, then charge nurse, then assistant nurse manager, then nurse manager, then director, etc etc etc.... Any advice here? I'd really like to not go back to a bedside nurse. I love not working nights/evenings/weekends/holidays all the time. I have a lot of leadership experience in academia and I will have a doctorate in healthcare leadership soon. Send help! Any ideas of what I can do here? 

Specializes in Education, Skills & Simulation, Med/Surg, Pharm.
6 minutes ago, PollywogNP said:

What is “c-suite “?

C-Suite is anyone with a "chief" title. Common examples include chief nursing officer, chief executive officer, chief operating officer, chief financial officer, etc. It is typically considered to be the top in the career trajectory.

0 Votes
Specializes in Med-Surg/Tele/ER/Urgent Care.
On 7/10/2021 at 12:40 PM, SmilingBluEyes said:

I just thought of something. A lot of senior admin positions want you to have an MBA. Have you looked into that? A doctorate in Education is NOTHING to sneeze at and I am impressed at  your educational progression in 11 years, but EVERY one I know who advanced to such positions possessed MBAs.

True! Also some CNOs have both MBA & MSN in Nursing Administration plus other doctorate in Nursing along with years as RN, years as charge nurse then years as unit manager/ house supervisor etc. You have 4 years bedside experience and 7 years teaching. I taught nursing for 10 years and I don’t equate that to bedside nursing nor is it  similar to nursing management in a hospital environment. You’re getting a Doctoral degree in Educational leadership, is this degree meant to be used at a university setting? It doesn’t sound like it’s in the nursing administration realm. IMO you don’t have the experience to be a CNO. You’ve never even been a charge nurse and you don’t like bedside nursing. 

7 minutes ago, HOPEforRNs said:

C-Suite is anyone with a "chief" title. Common examples include chief nursing officer, chief executive officer, chief operating officer, chief financial officer, etc. It is typically considered to be the top in the career trajectory.

I have never heard this term before. I have heard them called “the ‘O’s. 

1 Votes
Specializes in Primary Care, Military.
On 7/10/2021 at 2:40 PM, SmilingBluEyes said:

I just thought of something. A lot of senior admin positions want you to have an MBA. Have you looked into that? A doctorate in Education is NOTHING to sneeze at and I am impressed at  your educational progression in 11 years, but EVERY one I know who advanced to such positions possessed MBAs.

They likely would also prefer to see the higher-level degrees focused on Nursing Administration rather than Education. Those are actually focused on management-specific and management-leadership topics. They also should be preparing you to sit for one of the certification exams for Nurse Executives, which gives you an added boost. The program that shared some of our basic MSN courses with my FNP cohort had its own type of clinical time alongside current Managers/Executives learning the job. 

 What it takes to succeed in academia and teaching doesn't necessarily translate to what is expected and desired in the hospital executive culture. Teaching and running a class of undergrads or post-grads is not the same as running a unit, much less a hospital. The added business pressures alone make it so much different. 

3 Votes
Specializes in Education, Skills & Simulation, Med/Surg, Pharm.
Just now, PollywogNP said:

True! Also some CNOs have both MBA & MSN in Nursing Administration plus other doctorate in Nursing along with years as RN, years as charge nurse then years as unit manager/ house supervisor etc. You have 4 years bedside experience and 7 years teaching. I taught nursing for 10 years and I don’t equate that to bedside nursing nor is it  similar to nursing management in a hospital environment. You’re getting a Doctorsl degree in Educational leadership, is this degree meant to be used at a university setting? It doesn’t sound like it’s in the nursing administration realm. IMO you don’t have the experience to be a CNO. You’ve never even been a charge nurse and you don’t like bedside nursing. 

I'm not trying to get hired straight into a CNO. I'm not crazy. That's my end goal. I am trying to figure out where my entry point is, and I was surprised to see I couldn't even get hired as an assistant manager on a unit. I *used* to be a bedside RN + charge nurse. I'm aware of that job. I'm also vaguely aware of a nurse manager job because I have plenty of friends from nursing school who chose that route. The job of a nursing professor and a nurse manager has a lot of similarities. Sure, there are things I would have to learn. But I'd rather learn the ins and outs of the unit than try to teach someone good leadership and management skills. I can count on one hand the people I know who have thought they had a great manager. Perhaps they should reevaluate their hiring practices anyway. I don't want to take a pay cut and go back to being a full-time bedside nurse. Why is that a negative? Also, my doctorate is 50% educational leadership and 50% healthcare leadership. About half of my cohort are looking to lead nursing programs and the other half are looking to lead healthcare systems. The program prepares you to do both. 

0 Votes
Specializes in Education, Skills & Simulation, Med/Surg, Pharm.
2 minutes ago, HarleyvQuinn said:

They likely would also prefer to see the higher-level degrees focused on Nursing Administration rather than Education. Those are actually focused on management-specific and management-leadership topics. They also should be preparing you to sit for one of the certification exams for Nurse Executives, which gives you an added boost. The program that shared some of our basic MSN courses with my FNP cohort had its own type of clinical time alongside current Managers/Executives learning the job. 

 What it takes to succeed in academia and teaching doesn't necessarily translate to what is expected and desired in the hospital executive culture. Teaching and running a class of undergrads or post-grads is not the same as running a unit, much less a hospital. The added business pressures alone make it so much different. 

To get a certification as a nurse executive, you just need 2,000 hours of recent experience running at least 1 hospital unit. You don't need an advanced degree. You need the experience first. But this is why my doctorate is 50% focused on healthcare leadership.

There are a lot of similarities between managing nursing students and managing nurses. I do manage finances, purchasing, and budgeting. There are also differences. I can learn those. I'd rather have to learn that than have someone trying to learn how to be a good leader, personally. I'm not trying to get hired as a CNO. That's my end goal. I was trying to see where my entry point into the system was. And apparently, it's at ground zero. 

10 minutes ago, PollywogNP said:

True! Also some CNOs have both MBA & MSN in Nursing Administration plus other doctorate in Nursing along with years as RN, years as charge nurse then years as unit manager/ house supervisor etc. You have 4 years bedside experience and 7 years teaching. I taught nursing for 10 years and I don’t equate that to bedside nursing nor is it  similar to nursing management in a hospital environment. You’re getting a Doctoral degree in Educational leadership, is this degree meant to be used at a university setting? It doesn’t sound like it’s in the nursing administration realm. IMO you don’t have the experience to be a CNO. You’ve never even been a charge nurse and you don’t like bedside nursing. 

I have never heard this term before. I have heard them called “the ‘O’s. 

I've never heard that term. What does the 'o' stand for? 

0 Votes
Specializes in Primary Care, Military.
2 minutes ago, HOPEforRNs said:

To get a certification as a nurse executive, you just need 2,000 hours of recent experience running at least 1 hospital unit. You don't need an advanced degree. You need the experience first. But this is why my doctorate is 50% focused on healthcare leadership.

There are a lot of similarities between managing nursing students and managing nurses. I do manage finances, purchasing, and budgeting. There are also differences. I can learn those. I'd rather have to learn that than have someone trying to learn how to be a good leader, personally. I'm not trying to get hired as a CNO. That's my end goal. I was trying to see where my entry point into the system was. And apparently, it's at ground zero. 

 You're assuming that those in the C-suite, which is heavily focused on MBAs, care more about actual healthcare leadership than they do about business-focused leadership. The Nursing Admin track, from what I saw of it, included a lot of that business focus into their healthcare leadership. 

 You don't have to convince me either way. I chose the clinical path as an NP. Whether through teaching or managing, you're doing a lot of adult babysitting to me. ?

1 Votes
Specializes in Med-Surg/Tele/ER/Urgent Care.
7 hours ago, HOPEforRNs said:

 

I've never heard that term. What does the 'o' stand for? 

Officer. CEO, CFO, CQO, CNO, any management/administration position where one person is in charge of a division or area.

0 Votes
Specializes in Occupational Health.

"Basically, they do not consider my doctorate degree as any experience or leg up nor do they consider my academic leadership experience as relevant."

This is, unfortunately, the long and short of it. Your current and past experience seem better suited to moving up in Academia. You might be better off with a educational doctorate in educational leadership (or something similar) that would open up more career opportunities in your current career path.  

0 Votes
Specializes in Education, Skills & Simulation, Med/Surg, Pharm.
3 hours ago, sleepwalker said:

"Basically, they do not consider my doctorate degree as any experience or leg up nor do they consider my academic leadership experience as relevant."

This is, unfortunately, the long and short of it. Your current and past experience seem better suited to moving up in Academia. You might be better off with a educational doctorate in educational leadership (or something similar) that would open up more career opportunities in your current career path.  

The degree is 50% educational leadership and 50% healthcare administration/leadership. That's why it is 60 credit hours post-masters - lots to cover! However, where I'm at now won't let you move into high leadership positions unless you go tenure track. I have no desire to go tenure track because then you have a responsibility to get grant funding and publish. I enjoy that, but not when I have annual minimums and it takes away a considerable amount of time from teaching. Hence why I planned to eventually move into healthcare administration and leadership. It's unfortunate that they are unable to see the parallels. They just keep the trail going of bad managers instead of trying a different approach.

0 Votes
Specializes in Occupational Health.

"You need to look at this realistically. I mean this to just be straightforward/real talk, not harsh....but some of what you are saying sounds like a young adult whose only job has been watching 2 kids all Summer then describing that as experience running a business, experience being a lifeguard, experience running a taxi fleet and experience being a 'personal chef'....YKWIM? Yes, the things you have done are important and there's no doubt you have learned a lot being a boots-on-the-ground leader in your various roles. I just don't think it is probably the same as all that goes into executive decision-making and producing results and directing the entire nursing service line. Etc."

This is a very salient point. The more I read your post and consider your justifications and rationales regarding your degree progression and career path, the more I'm inclined to view and place your decision methodology firmly within the realm of experiential extrapolation. 

0 Votes
Specializes in Education, Skills & Simulation, Med/Surg, Pharm.
2 minutes ago, sleepwalker said:

"You need to look at this realistically. I mean this to just be straightforward/real talk, not harsh....but some of what you are saying sounds like a young adult whose only job has been watching 2 kids all Summer then describing that as experience running a business, experience being a lifeguard, experience running a taxi fleet and experience being a 'personal chef'....YKWIM? Yes, the things you have done are important and there's no doubt you have learned a lot being a boots-on-the-ground leader in your various roles. I just don't think it is probably the same as all that goes into executive decision-making and producing results and directing the entire nursing service line. Etc."

This is a very salient point. The more I read your post and consider your justifications and rationales regarding your degree progression and career path, the more I'm inclined to view and place your decision methodology firmly within the realm of experiential extrapolation. 

Nobody knows how to be an assistant nurse manager or nurse manager until they end up in that specific role. I was a bedside RN and charge nurse for years. Then I moved into mentoring, precepting, and teaching. I also manage a budget for the skills and simulation lab. I'm sure it's nothing like a unit budget, but it's still several hundred thousand dollars a year. While I don't hire nurses, I do hire student nurses to work in the skills and simulation lab. I have to manage a team of clinical instructors including dealing with preferences, clinical site needs, available hours, and call-offs. I deal with the same when it comes to taking students to the clinical sites, including managing 8-10 students and their patients. You're telling me I would be completely unprepared and unqualified for an ANM or NM position on a clinical unit? What would I gain by going back to being a bedside nurse for a while that would make or break my success in an ANM position? Please help me see what you are seeing that I am clearly missing.

1 Votes
Specializes in Occupational Health.
1 hour ago, HOPEforRNs said:

Nobody knows how to be an assistant nurse manager or nurse manager until they end up in that specific role. I was a bedside RN and charge nurse for years. Then I moved into mentoring, precepting, and teaching. I also manage a budget for the skills and simulation lab. I'm sure it's nothing like a unit budget, but it's still several hundred thousand dollars a year. While I don't hire nurses, I do hire student nurses to work in the skills and simulation lab. I have to manage a team of clinical instructors including dealing with preferences, clinical site needs, available hours, and call-offs. I deal with the same when it comes to taking students to the clinical sites, including managing 8-10 students and their patients. You're telling me I would be completely unprepared and unqualified for an ANM or NM position on a clinical unit? What would I gain by going back to being a bedside nurse for a while that would make or break my success in an ANM position? Please help me see what you are seeing that I am clearly missing.

I think that you absolutely would be qualified for an assistant nurse manager position upon completion of 1 or 2 current years of current bedside nursing experience that involves ever progressive responsibilities. NB: clinical experience is not an equivalent nor is sim lab. 

4 Votes
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