I'm just a student but an issue came up in class that really had me We were discussing med administration and lady partsl suppositories. One of the male students in class asked if he would "have" to do that for a pt., or if he could delegate to another nurse. The part that most surprised me was that my nursing instructor told him it was fine, she had male nurses she worked with who refused to insert foley's on females and other procedures involving the peri area of women.
This just seems so unprofessional to me. A pt. is a pt. and if they need care, it's our job to provide it. I understand that we're in a crazy litigious society and she mentioned one male nurse who brought a female aide in when doing foley's and things (I understand that a lot more). But honestly, the tone from this male student and one other in class was more like "that's so gross, I can't handle it" rather than "I'm scared for my license".
Is this common? I've had male OB/GYNs care for me personally and didn't think twice. I guess it just made me uncomfortable the sexual implication that they seemed to be projecting onto a medical procedure. Am I just out of touch?
I'm female and I've had a male nurse take care of me-- I was fine with it because he was totally professional. I think that as a nurse, you're obligated to your patients to take care of them no matter what. If the pt. was uncomfortable with a nurse caring for her because he was a male, I think that may be a different story.
I guess there is kind of a double standard here-- pts don't really get to refuse a female doctor or a male doctor touching them, so it doesn't really make sense as to why the sex of a nurse should make a difference as long as they are behaving professionally.
if a nurse doesn't want to perform a task because it's "gross", then s/he needs to suck it up and just do it.
if the refusal is r/t cultural or moral beliefs, then i would have to question why one would enter nsg, where both genders of pts require personal care.
unless a pt requests otherwise, i would go about my business, remaining professional and sensitive to my pt's needs.
if i'm going to worry about a pt's potential to sue, then i'd bring someone else in as a witness.
when i've been a pt, i've been quite vocal about requesting a female nurse.
if a pt feels that strongly about it, they will speak up or, the nurse will/should notice the hesitation, in which the nurse would pursue the meaning of the body language.
if a nurse doesn't want to perform a task because it's "gross", then s/he needs to suck it up and just do it.
if the refusal is r/t cultural or moral beliefs, then i would have to question why one would enter nsg, where both genders of pts require personal care.
Right you are (again) earle58. You are wise indeed.
Not everyone is meant to be nurse for a many different reasons. If religious or moral concerns prohibit one from giving personal care to all of one's patients irrespective of gender then choosing a different profession might make sense.
If one finds bodily fluids and bodily parts too "gross" to handle then another profession is very much a better plan.
When I worked with a male nurse (now my hubby!) in a nursing home, we would occasionally trade tasks.
The nursing home didn't stock sterile gloves in his size, especially the gloves in the cath kits. He also doesn't care to put catheters in females. I would do it. I don't mind doing catheters.
There was one lady who requested that he didn't give her vag cream. She definitely liked him to care for her otherwise; she just preferred that a woman do that treatment. No biggie. Most other women didn't care that he was male.
I usually got him to coax some of the ladies with dementia I was taking care of on my side (a couple of them in particular come to mind) to eat during supper. They wouldn't budge for many of us women nurses, but they loved his attention and would eat.
here's an interesting point that my boyfriend made when we were discussing this thread.... how do men feel about having a male nurse for sensitive procedures? he's had a male patient refuse him to insert a foley because he's male. he even said they told him it was no offense, but that it was a woman's job. i suppose its a cultural or a pride thing?
here's an interesting point that my boyfriend made when we were discussing this thread.... how do men feel about having a male nurse for sensitive procedures? he's had a male patient refuse him to insert a foley because he's male. he even said they told him it was no offense, but that it was a woman's job. i suppose its a cultural or a pride thing?
what do you guys think about that?
Unfortunately I think it's a combo of some thinking nursing is a woman's job, some more comfortable with a woman handling their member than a male, and the gay stereotype of male nurses at play once again which is shameful in this day and age.
im a male student nurse, i'm about 2 start clinicals. we had this discussion in pvr.can anyone with experience tell me how often either male or female pt will request a female nurse 4 pericare? my impression is men are just as likely to refuse as women
he's had a male patient refuse him to insert a foley because he's male. he even said they told him it was no offense, but that it was a woman's job. i suppose its a cultural or a pride thing?
what do you guys think about that?
I reckon the pt may have got his thrills from having a female nurse handle the procedure...
Some men prefer men to handle caths. One of my pts the other day was complaining that his Foley was driving him nuts. After a few question and some thought we figured out that he usually "dressed right" as an English tailor would say, yet the statlock was on his left leg. No wonder the thing was driving him nuts. I changed the statlock to his right leg and voila, problem solved. He noted that the appreciated having a guy for nurse to handle this.
So, we've seen several reasons here that a nurse (male OR female) might want to switch out patient care, if possible.
1. They think something is icky.
2. They have a personal perspective about modesty and personal respect that says they should avoid getting really personal with the opposite sex, to the extent possible. In this case they aren't necessarily morally compelled, but this is how they feel about it.
3. jlsRN seems to think it would apply only to male nurses with female patients, because woman are a more vulnerable population.
4. Some nurses may hold religious beliefs that obligate them to preserve modesty between sexes. In this case, it isn't simply a matter of personal choice; they are morally compelled by the religious beliefs and practices that they are bound by. This doesn't seem to come to the fore much in America, and I think many of us have a hard time grasping this, and respecting this. There are religions and cultures to whom this can be very important. And it will vary among cultures. Just because the Buddha said something (if indeed he did, and I mean no disrespect here at all) doesn't mean that I see that as relevant to me as a traditional Jew or Muslim or Navajo or whatever. I am bound at home and on the street by the dictates of my culture. In America there is no clearly dominant explicit moral culture (though there is a general moral sense in the society), and so it is hard for some of us to understand why a colleague's religious obligations would have any role at work. In addition, some of us only understand the role of such considerations in 'big' issues like abortion or discontinuing life support, but don't understand that there may be a role for cultural and religious considerations in all of our interactions. What's more, many of us don't really understand the notion of a religious obligation, as opposed to an important preference. When a Muslim colleague or patient says they can't have pork, that isn't just an important religious preference. To them that is an absolute obligation that has real consequences for their spiritual well-being, as they believe it. Many of us don't get that sort of imperative approach. There's nothing malicious about it, it just isn't part of the majority mindset.
5. Some may be paranoid (and even paranoids can have enemies!) about the litigious nature of the times we live in. Sad, but not crazy by any means. :icon_roll
Since this is a genuine ethical matter, there are other potentially conflicting values that come into play. It was suggested here that by taking an RN license we enter into a societal contract. If that is true, it is a very important consideration. What is the nature of that contract, and to whom does it apply. Nurse-patient? Nurse-colleague? What are the obligations and rights implicit in that contract? There is an issue of fairness and not causing undue burden to patients or colleagues. What are the limits of that? It was also mentioned here (implied by me as well) that we choose to be healthcare professionals. If we think we can't manage the demands of the profession for whatever good reason, maybe we have no business entering the field to begin with. And there are other considerations, to be sure.
As you all can see, I think this is a worthy and weighty topic. My apologies! :icon_roll I was surprised to find in nursing school not just cultural ignorance and naivite; but something far more important. Most of my classmates had little or no experience in making serious, considered, articulate ethical considerations. Moral dilemnas rarely came up among students, and the program taught it very little other than briefly assigning some reading and some very short discussion of the issues. What's more, I think some of our instructors weren't much more sophisticated in these matters.
I think given that we choose a profession that gives us profound impact on other lives, and given that all human beings are moral beings by definition or default (no one lives a lifetime without ethical dilemnas and moral choices), we should learn to approach these considerations more clearly and intelligently than we often do.
Okay, off my soapbox for now...
(he wanders off muttering to himself...)
I think it is quite right to frame this as an ethical issue. The first provision of the ANA Code of Ethics for Nurses states: "The nurse, in all professional relationships, practices with compassion and respect for the inherent dignity, worth, and uniqueness of every individual, unrestricted by considerations of social or economic status, personal attributes, or the nature of the health problems." That's the "social contract" we undertake (in the US) when we become nurses. No one can force us to become nurses, but the applicable code of ethics is part of the deal. Refusing to provide care because one finds it distasteful seems clearly inconsistent with that provision. If the need arises to disimpact a Neo-nazi with Hansen's disease, that's my job.
Where conflicts arise between one's personal ethics and nursing ethics, it may be possible to accommodate both. Hypothetically, if a nurse on my unit objected on religious grounds to administering blood products, there are enough nurses who have no such objection to hang blood, which is not a task that arises on a daily basis. It would be no more a hardship than our routine practice of not assigning a pregnant nurse to care for a patient with active shingles. But I think the opportunities would be very limited to accommodate a nurse who objected to dispensing medications. At some point, if one is unable or unwilling to adhere to a nursing code of ethics, one needs to do something else. If one is unwilling to perform the routine, ordinary duties of a nurse, purely as a matter of personal preference, that hardly seems to meet the standard of "compassion and respect."
ETA: I believe every jurisdiction--or at least most--has some version of a code of ethics, be it ANA, International Council of Nurses, or whatever.
That's the "social contract" we undertake (in the US) when we become nurses. ... Refusing to provide care because one finds it distasteful seems clearly inconsistent with that provision. If the need arises to disimpact a Neo-nazi with Hansen's disease, that's my job..
Right. Indeed I argue it is an obligation to disimpact the above mentioned pt.
Nurses are given the privilege of practice by society. In return we follow a professional code of ethics. If personal ethics are in conflict with professional ethics then one has pretty big problem on one's hands.
I think the issue is not about if female residents/patients take issue, but if male nurses have the right to avoid intimate care nursing tasks because they are uncomfortable with caring for women, when female nurses, in reality, really don't have much of an option to bow out of caring for male patients.
I've never said once that male nurses should be off the hook for certain tasks, but I do defend the right for us females to demand another female for certain types of personal care.
Unfortunately I think it's a combo of some thinking nursing is a woman's job, some more comfortable with a woman handling their member than a male, and the gay stereotype of male nurses at play once again which is shameful in this day and age.
Men can be sensitive about their memberes, and competative about how they measure up to the other guys. It's a locker room type thing I've heard. Also, many men don't want anything to do with something that might smack of homosexuality. Maybe they're afraid that they might have a bi-curious part of themselves that they really don't want to have surface? After all, if a man gets aroused it's fairly obvious...
We were discussing med administration and lady partsl suppositories. One of the male students in class asked if he would "have" to do that for a pt., or if he could delegate to another nurse. The part that most surprised me was that my nursing instructor told him it was fine, she had male nurses she worked with who refused to insert foley's on females and other procedures involving the peri area of women. 
silas2642
84 Posts
I'm female and I've had a male nurse take care of me-- I was fine with it because he was totally professional. I think that as a nurse, you're obligated to your patients to take care of them no matter what. If the pt. was uncomfortable with a nurse caring for her because he was a male, I think that may be a different story.
I guess there is kind of a double standard here-- pts don't really get to refuse a female doctor or a male doctor touching them, so it doesn't really make sense as to why the sex of a nurse should make a difference as long as they are behaving professionally.