male instructor touching students - I voiced my concern

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Hi guys, I don't know if you remember that some weeks ago I posted a message here regarding my health assessment male instructor touching the female students during lab classes. Anyway, 98% of the students in my class are women from 19 - 44 years old, and at least half of us (maybe more) feel really uncomfortable with this specific instructor. Anyway, he can be nice and funny at times, but many of us think he is quite bossy and arrogant, and overuses his power making some of us feel really small. So I was already frustrated about this whole thing, and two weeks ago when we had to do the abdomen assessment, I was lying in bed and 2 other students were working with me, assessing each other. We had curtains around and our instructor said that we didn't need to wear gown, so I was lying there with my shirt on top of my breasts and my jeans opened. He came into the cubicle where we were, and he asked me to show my pubic bone. But I was feeling kind of uncomfortable, and he said: "If you can't find it, I will!" And he reached down my panties and started touching my pubic bone, not taking into consideration that he was crossing my comfort zone and didn't respect the fact that I didn't want him touching me. Then when he grabbed my jeans to drop even more I said "NO".. and he ended up making comments about my pubic hair, as there was no reason for me to be shy because he had seen lots, and he looked at the two students and said that eventually we have to be forceful with patients.

I just felt that my privacy wasn't ensured at any time. He again overused his power, compromised my learning, and then came back later to ask if I was ok. Then the next day, he phoned my house to apologise, but because I was already fedup, I phoned the other campus (same University) and talked to the dean of health sciences and explained to her what had happened and I was curious to know what his job description really is and how far can he go. So to make the story short, the Dean of health sciences ended up phoning the coordinator of the nursing program and told her that I had phoned, and the dean also talked to the male instructor.

But it seemed to me that after the Dean talked to the instructor, they were convinced by his version of the story, and I felt as if I am just being a whiner and although the said that they understand my concerns and changes will be made, I think they are saying that just to pretend they are supporting me. The coordinator of the nursing program who is a female, is defending him, and said to me that "he is a nurse and he did that to me, just because he was trying to demonstrate to me where my pubic bone is"

I still think he shouldn't touch us at all. But apparently he thinks that he needs to keep demonstrating how to do things. I also suggested us wearing shorts and tanktops instead of just panties and bra, but I noticed some resistance to the idea.

Oh well... I just get a negative vibe from him, and I am happy to know that he won't ever tough me again, but I really wish something could be done, so people wouldn't feel intimidated to go to his class.

Thanks for listening..

Specializes in Trauma ICU, MICU/SICU.

Report it to the BON. Heck, report it to the police. He touched you inappropriately and that is assault. Might even be considered sexual assault.

Specializes in 5 yrs OR, ASU Pre-Op 2 yr. ER.
I know that everyone is pushing to go to the cops, but they probably won't be able to do anything either. IF they do, then it could make her life more of a living hell than anything. And if this instructor gets suspended/terminated, then it could end up messing up their whole nursing program being it's new and small.

I would put in formal written complaints because those have staying power than phone calls.

And I agree it was terribly inappropriate, but I'm trying to play devil's advocate here (and certainly NOT sticking up for the guy) but he's in his 50's and did street nursing. He's probably been brash all his life and until now probably never had anyone really make a big stink about it. He probably feels incredibly terrible about it and she did state that he's changing in the way he talks to the students. However for her, it seems to have traumatized her because it's still eating at her. I really don't think they'll terminate him over this. People make mistakes and seldomly do they lose their jobs over the first infraction. Now if there were several incidents before this one, then perhaps yes, but I wouldn't bank on it.

The worst part is that she's stuck with this professor for god knows how many more semesters. :uhoh21:

They HAVE complained.

And "street nursing" STILL does not excuse inappropriate touching. Mistakes? He intentionally touches these women. He depends on people not saying anything about it!:uhoh3:

i really don't think they'll terminate him over this. people make mistakes and seldomly do they lose their jobs over the first infraction. now if there were several incidents before this one, then perhaps yes, but i wouldn't bank on it.

he didn't make a mistake. he committed a crime. we don't say a person who robs a bank or plans and executes a murder or steals a car as having made a mistake. we say they have committed a crime. if the police in bc recognize sexual assault as a valid crime, then they should be able to help this student out by taking a report and making arrest if they deem it necessary. only a court can determine if mr. pervert is guilty though, not the cops.

Specializes in Emergency Dept, M/S.

I'm just STUNNED reading this! OMG, how horrible you must feel. I'm so sorry this is happening, and you aren't getting anyone to take notice or action.

Beyond the great advice of contacting the police and other authorities, it would be interesting to know if this creep has done this before, like in the States or wherever, and lost his license because of it. I know in my state (I know your in Canada, however), if we know a person's name, the BON has a website where you can look up any discipline info on any RN, LPN, CNA - anyone licensed by the state BON. I'd bet dollars to donuts that he has been "dismissed" from other positions and pawned off on colleges, who are desperate for instructors.

It's really a shame that your college won't truly acknowledge your complaint, and is just paying lip-service to the whole thing. No one deserves treatment like the administration is giving you, and CERTAINLY the abuse from him.

Specializes in Orthopedics/Med-Surg, LDRP.
he didn't make a mistake. he committed a crime. we don't say a person who robs a bank or plans and executes a murder or steals a car as having made a mistake. we say they have committed a crime. if the police in bc recognize sexual assault as a valid crime, then they should be able to help this student out by taking a report and making arrest if they deem it necessary. only a court can determine if mr. pervert is guilty though, not the cops.

well it's not sexual assault. he did touch her lower than he should have for an abdominal exam, but i live right next door to a lieutenant and several doors down from a state trooper. neither of them said that would be construed as sexual assault. i'm not trying to trivialize it - it was highly inappropriate, but it was still a mistake. he made the mistake of going that low and voilating her "personal" space. it hasn't happened since then and it was reported through the appropriate chain of command. realistically, there's nothing more that will be able to be done. it's just fact. if she really hates it she can withdrawl out of that school and transfer.

Specializes in Orthopedics/Med-Surg, LDRP.

Ok then they've complained and they've done all that can realistically be done. And this was an ISOLATED occurance with this ONE class and the ONE group of students. I haven't read anywhere else where this has been going on for several semesters or with several students. I saw where the other students that were standing around her that witnessed this didn't want to say anything, but other than that I didn't see where he just out and out fondled another student or anything of that sort.

And with street nursing, they tend to be more brash than people are used to and if it was someone who spent decades doing this type of nursing, they may "forget" about proprieties. I'm sure if this has happened several times through several semesters, with him being a new instructor, his butt would have been booted out because he wouldn't have tenure yet. (If they even do tenure there).

She can go to the police, but I'll pretty much guarantee they won't do anything about it other than ask if she'd like to file a restraining order and then she wouldn't be able to attend school. She's got to weigh her options.

They HAVE complained.

And "street nursing" STILL does not excuse inappropriate touching. Mistakes? He intentionally touches these women. He depends on people not saying anything about it!:uhoh3:

Specializes in 5 yrs OR, ASU Pre-Op 2 yr. ER.
Ok then they've complained and they've done all that can realistically be done. And this was an ISOLATED occurance with this ONE class and the ONE group of students. I haven't read anywhere else where this has been going on for several semesters or with several students. I saw where the other students that were standing around her that witnessed this didn't want to say anything, but other than that I didn't see where he just out and out fondled another student or anything of that sort.

And with street nursing, they tend to be more brash than people are used to and if it was someone who spent decades doing this type of nursing, they may "forget" about proprieties. I'm sure if this has happened several times through several semesters, with him being a new instructor, his butt would have been booted out because he wouldn't have tenure yet. (If they even do tenure there).

She can go to the police, but I'll pretty much guarantee they won't do anything about it other than ask if she'd like to file a restraining order and then she wouldn't be able to attend school. She's got to weigh her options.

You don't KNOW that this IS isolated, was my point. This COULD have happened in the past, and surely COULD happen again!

And she wasn't the only one in the class either.

And if that crap had happened to me, i'll be ****ed if i'd "weigh my options". I'd know the right thing to do, which would be putting a stop to it and ensuring it doesn't happen to anyone else..

ONE group is too many. One STUDENT is too many.

Specializes in Orthopedics/Med-Surg, LDRP.

Yes, but this is also the real world. Very seldomly does an isolated incident really get such dramatic action as this guy being fired. If he went even further below her panty line and really grazed her genitals then yeah THEN it would be cause for dismissal.

And I think if this happened in the past SOMEONE would have spoken up and being that this has probably spread by word of mouth throughout the class, it'll spread to the lower and upper classmen. Everyone talks, especially with something like that. I'm sure even non-nursing major people know about it by now. And after all of the attention she has gotten for this professor, the other faculty and dean(s) are aware of the situation and I'd highly doubt it would ever happen again. But if this has happened to others, then it's their folly for not coming forward and i applaud this girl for bringing it to light.

But at the same time, we're all human. We make poor decisions and we suffer for them. How many nurses make med errors that cost patient lives? Are they now murderers for life? Then we can say that ONE PATIENT was too many - let's just strip that nurse of her liscense and cast her out because of one error? This guy messed up. He had an error in judgement. It's been reported out the wazoo. We can all get upset about it and send our empathy out to this girl (and her class really), but at the end of the day he'll likely keep his job and she's still got to muddle through classes.

Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.

well it's not sexual assault. he did touch her lower than he should have for an abdominal exam, but i live right next door to a lieutenant and several doors down from a state trooper. neither of them said that would be construed as sexual assault. i'm not trying to trivialize it - it was highly inappropriate, but it was still a mistake. he made the mistake of going that low and voilating her "personal" space. it hasn't happened since then and it was reported through the appropriate chain of command. realistically, there's nothing more that will be able to be done. it's just fact. if she really hates it she can withdrawl out of that school and transfer.

i worked in law enforcement for 6 years and any unwanted touch is generally considered an assault, which is why even spitting on an officer can get a person in trouble for assault. i'm not even going to make the excuse that this instructor was ignorant. it's obvious from almost everyone here that he stepped out of bounds. if we all can see that, then he did too and took advantage of his position of power. the fact that he had his hands down her underwear for something not relevant to what they were studying and then commented on her pubic hair is clearly sexual in nature and not some accident or anything minor. saying this was just a mistake is trivializing the situation. only the victim here can really be the one to decide if she thinks it was a mistake or not. to assume that this man did not intentionally try to violate her but only made a mistake is a mistake! mmh bc can press charges. i'd be surprised if a police department told her she could not press charges in this situation. if it was obvious that just a "mistake" occurred, then the dept. may try to convince the victim not to press charges. but it's not obvious in this case that just a mistake occurred. at any rate, it's not the police dept that determines guilt. only a judge can.

but at the same time, we're all human. we make poor decisions and we suffer for them. how many nurses make med errors that cost patient lives? are they now murderers for life? then we can say that one patient was too many - let's just strip that nurse of her liscense and cast her out because of one error? this guy messed up. he had an error in judgement. it's been reported out the wazoo. we can all get upset about it and send our empathy out to this girl (and her class really), but at the end of the day he'll likely keep his job and she's still got to muddle through classes.

let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.

they would be murderers if they killed their patients intentionally. just like this instructor would be a criminal if he intentionally touched mmh bh inappropriately. i don't know about you, but i always assume the higher priority when a situation occurs where the facts are not clear. for instance, i would not readily assume that only a mistake occurred if a student confronted me and said an instructor put his hands in her underwear. i would assume that it is very possible that this student could have been assaulted. the safety of the students would come first and thus i would not automatically downgrade this situation to one of just an accident without thoroughly investigating the situation. to do that would be a mistake.

I also have a daughter that is entering nursing school in September and would be quite unhappy if she was violated...Load the gun unhappy.

That said...

The first thing I would ask her and of course I need to ask you...And please I am not starting a war here...

Did he really violate you? Are you possibly being over-reactionary because perhaps you are a modest or shy person? Is it not possible that as your Physical Assessment instructor who is doing live demonstrations he needs to help every student by actually touching you like a patient?

It would make no sense for a College Professor to violate you in front of other students...Perhaps he was trying to make a point about feeling comfortable dealing with an uncomfortable pateint. As a male nursing student I feel uncomfortable all the time when assessing female patients. I make jokes and small talk to get through, but now reading your post makes me concerned that at any given time I could possibly violate someone for just doing my job.

As for him apologizing...you were obviously upset. Is it not good and upstanding behavior to apologize to a person who you made upset. Wether he was right or wrong or should I say inappropriate or not, he still upset a student and wanted to make it right, I do not think that automatically makes him guilty of being a pervert if in fact in his mind he did not cross the line.

OK all that said, if the guy is a pervert and he truly violated you than I vote with the rest to fry his A-s...I just want you to think hard, you may be about to ruin a guys career, credibilty and his life with your accusations. Please be sure you are right. By the way, how long has he been teaching and has this charge ever been made before?

Good luck, I am sure you will make the right decision...

dave :wink2:

Specializes in Orthopedics/Med-Surg, LDRP.

so you're saying that if a stranger bumps me on the street and it's unwanted it's an assault? :uhoh21: if that were the case, people would be "assaulting" people left and right. i didn't say he stepped out of bounds and that his actions and comments weren't highly inappropriate, but i'm saying he's not going to get fired over it and i doubt that any police action would get anywhere. and it's not like his hands were all the way down her underware and he wasn't lingering there fondling her. he was palpating. going down that far was a mistake and we don't know what he was palpating for or anything of that sort. it they were doing assement say for ob then yeah, you'd want to be down that far to palpate the uterus. there could be a medically rational reason why he did it and again, she felt uneasy about it after the fact and she was unhappy with it all. she complained up the chain of command and the guy was reprimanded for it. it hasn't happened since. what more do you want?

and i agree with dave's comments as well. i was in the hospital for a week earlier this year (pneumonia/severe bronchitis/atalectasis) and i had a male nurse overnight one night and he had to do frequent breath sounds/heart sounds. i knew that to get the best sounds, you put the stethescope to the skin and he had his scope in my gown on my chest. he brushed against my breast, and it was awkward (being he was a guy) but he was very professional about it and it was over with quickly. everything is a matter of perception and like you i don't want to start a war, but none of us were there and like you i'd hate to see this guy's entire career go down the tubes for just a lack of judgment or a mistake. and like you if the guy did it for a strictly pervy reason (and i highly doubt he did with a bunch of students watching) then he deserves to be booted.

i worked in law enforcement for 6 years and any unwanted touch is generally considered an assault, which is why even spitting on an officer can get a person in trouble for assault. i'm not even going to make the excuse that this instructor was ignorant. it's obvious from almost everyone here that he stepped out of bounds. if we all can see that, then he did too and took advantage of his position of power. the fact that he had his hands down her underwear for something not relevant to what they were studying and then commented on her pubic hair is clearly sexual in nature and not some accident or anything minor. saying this was just a mistake is trivializing the situation. only the victim here can really be the one to decide if she thinks it was a mistake or not. to assume that this man did not intentionally try to violate her but only made a mistake is a mistake! mmh bc can press charges. i'd be surprised if a police department told her she could not press charges in this situation. if it was obvious that just a "mistake" occurred, then the dept. may try to convince the victim not to press charges. but it's not obvious in this case that just a mistake occurred. at any rate, it's not the police dept that determines guilt. only a judge can.

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