Hi guys, I don't know if you remember that some weeks ago I posted a message here regarding my health assessment male instructor touching the female students during lab classes. Anyway, 98% of the students in my class are women from 19 - 44 years old, and at least half of us (maybe more) feel really uncomfortable with this specific instructor. Anyway, he can be nice and funny at times, but many of us think he is quite bossy and arrogant, and overuses his power making some of us feel really small. So I was already frustrated about this whole thing, and two weeks ago when we had to do the abdomen assessment, I was lying in bed and 2 other students were working with me, assessing each other. We had curtains around and our instructor said that we didn't need to wear gown, so I was lying there with my shirt on top of my breasts and my jeans opened. He came into the cubicle where we were, and he asked me to show my pubic bone. But I was feeling kind of uncomfortable, and he said: "If you can't find it, I will!" And he reached down my panties and started touching my pubic bone, not taking into consideration that he was crossing my comfort zone and didn't respect the fact that I didn't want him touching me. Then when he grabbed my jeans to drop even more I said "NO".. and he ended up making comments about my pubic hair, as there was no reason for me to be shy because he had seen lots, and he looked at the two students and said that eventually we have to be forceful with patients.
I just felt that my privacy wasn't ensured at any time. He again overused his power, compromised my learning, and then came back later to ask if I was ok. Then the next day, he phoned my house to apologise, but because I was already fedup, I phoned the other campus (same University) and talked to the dean of health sciences and explained to her what had happened and I was curious to know what his job description really is and how far can he go. So to make the story short, the Dean of health sciences ended up phoning the coordinator of the nursing program and told her that I had phoned, and the dean also talked to the male instructor.
But it seemed to me that after the Dean talked to the instructor, they were convinced by his version of the story, and I felt as if I am just being a whiner and although the said that they understand my concerns and changes will be made, I think they are saying that just to pretend they are supporting me. The coordinator of the nursing program who is a female, is defending him, and said to me that "he is a nurse and he did that to me, just because he was trying to demonstrate to me where my pubic bone is"
I still think he shouldn't touch us at all. But apparently he thinks that he needs to keep demonstrating how to do things. I also suggested us wearing shorts and tanktops instead of just panties and bra, but I noticed some resistance to the idea.
Oh well... I just get a negative vibe from him, and I am happy to know that he won't ever tough me again, but I really wish something could be done, so people wouldn't feel intimidated to go to his class.
Well it's not sexual assault. He did touch her lower than he should have for an abdominal exam, but I live right next door to a lieutenant and several doors down from a state trooper. Neither of them said that would be construed as sexual assault. I'm not trying to trivialize it - it was highly inappropriate, but it was still a mistake. He made the mistake of going that low and voilating her "personal" space. It hasn't happened since then and it was reported through the appropriate chain of command. Realistically, there's nothing more that will be able to be done. It's just fact. If she really hates it she can withdrawl out of that school and transfer.
Most areas unwanted touching is at the least 4th degree assault. And what a police officer is willing to arrest you for is not the same thing as what a prosecuting atty will issue a warrant for. At the least an officer should take a report and forward to the PA to evaluate what charges are appropriate and issue the correct warrant for the police to serve.
We are not talking about a stranger walking up and touching this ladies Labia...
We are talking about a PHYSICAL ASSESSMENT University Professor doing live demomnstrations for abdominal exams on a student in front of other students and wanted to palpate her pubic bone.
Just out of curiousity, if the professor was a woman would any of this being going on? And more importantly, as a male nurse, should I never insert a foley in a female patient? Or better yet, are all the female nurses out there going to give up inserting a foley into a man's (oh by gosh) member?
And I did not ask this prior, but what exactly were his comments about the pubic hair. She said he made a joke about seeing lots of pubic hair. Did he say it was curly, cute, sexy? Or did he say in a therapeutic way..."don't worry Mrs. Patient, I have seen many womans pubic bones before there is nothing for you to be embarrassed about." After all, do we not have a sense of humor any more. Perhaps his only fault was assuming that he was dealing with adults in an adult environment and made an inappropriate comment which in his mind was innocent.
Again, I was not there...nor were any of you other than the OP, so I can not judge what went on. But talk of police, arrest, firing etc for a guy who gets paid to teach nurses how to touch other people, sometimes inappropriately, sounds like a witch hunt.
They teach us in nursing school that we always need to be doing self evaluations to understand how we feel about sensitive issues...This might be a wake up call for some about dealing with touching and being touched. After all isn't it all the same?
So you're saying that if a stranger bumps me on the street and it's unwanted it's an assault? :uhoh21: If that were the case, people would be "assaulting" people left and right. I didn't say he stepped out of bounds and that his actions and comments weren't HIGHLY inappropriate, but I'm saying he's not going to get fired over it and I doubt that any police action would get anywhere. And it's not like his hands were ALL the way down her underware and he wasn't lingering there fondling her. He was palpating. Going down that far was a mistake and we don't know what he was palpating for or anything of that sort. It they were doing assement say for OB then yeah, you'd want to be down that far to palpate the uterus. There could be a medically rational reason why he did it and again, she felt uneasy about it after the fact and she was unhappy with it all. She complained up the chain of command and the guy was reprimanded for it. It hasn't happened since. What more do you want?
And I agree with Dave's comments as well. I was in the hospital for a week earlier this year (pneumonia/severe bronchitis/atalectasis) and I had a male nurse overnight one night and he had to do frequent breath sounds/heart sounds. I knew that to get the best sounds, you put the stethescope to the skin and he had his scope in my gown on my chest. He brushed against my breast, and it was awkward (being he was a guy) but he was very professional about it and it was over with quickly. Everything is a matter of perception and like you I don't want to start a war, but none of us were there and like you I'd hate to see this guy's entire career go down the tubes for just a lack of judgment or a mistake. And like you if the guy did it for a strictly pervy reason (and I highly doubt he did with a bunch of students watching) then he deserves to be booted.
When I say unwanted touching, I mean where someone intentionally touches someone against their will. I'm not talking about bumping into someone walking down the street. The key word here is whether it was intentional or not. There's just no reason for this instructor to be anywhere inside underwear. Period! There's a difference between being a student in class and practicing assessments and actually being a patient. As a student, I would not allow an instructor to stick his hands on my breasts or in my underwear no matter what he or she was trying to teaching. However, as a patient, I would allow a doctor or nurse to enter those areas, if it was necessary for the exam. I'm not even sure this instructor was reprimanded as you stated. I believed someone talked to him but I'm not sure he was actually reprimanded.
We are not talking about a stranger walking up and touching this ladies Labia...
We are talking about a PHYSICAL ASSESSMENT University Professor doing live demomnstrations for abdominal exams on a student in front of other students and wanted to palpate her pubic bone.
Just out of curiousity, if the professor was a woman would any of this being going on? And more importantly, as a male nurse, should I never insert a foley in a female patient? Or better yet, are all the female nurses out there going to give up inserting a foley into a man's (oh by gosh) member?
And I did not ask this prior, but what exactly were his comments about the pubic hair. She said he made a joke about seeing lots of pubic hair. Did he say it was curly, cute, sexy? Or did he say in a therapeutic way..."don't worry Mrs. Patient, I have seen many womans pubic bones before there is nothing for you to be embarrassed about." After all, do we not have a sense of humor any more. Perhaps his only fault was assuming that he was dealing with adults in an adult environment and made an inappropriate comment which in his mind was innocent.
Again, I was not there...nor were any of you other than the OP, so I can not judge what went on. But talk of police, arrest, firing etc for a guy who gets paid to teach nurses how to touch other people, sometimes inappropriately, sounds like a witch hunt.
They teach us in nursing school that we always need to be doing self evaluations to understand how we feel about sensitive issues...This might be a wake up call for some about dealing with touching and being touched. After all isn't it all the same?
Good luck to all, dave :wink2:
Do medical students practice giving each other pap smears or do anal exams on each other when they're learning how to do assessments? No. This man has crossed the line with his so called teaching methods. We're not talking about a patient-nurse relationship here. We're talking about a student-teacher one and it's a much different relationship on a different level if you ask me. And please tell me why it's necessary to palpate one's pubic bone when teaching about abdominal assemssments. It's not a matter of the instructor being male or female because I'd personally have a problem with either sex sticking their hands in my underwear at any time during class. It's inappropriate and I'm not sure talking about anyone's pubic hair during class is considered having a good sense of humor. In fact, it would be crossing into the area of sexual harrassment. Some may find it hilarious and others may be offended and that's why he shouldn't be commenting on such things during class.
I have thought about this issue over and over again, and I still feel quite angry when I think about it! I have had other male instructors before in this nursing program and none of them was so disrespectful to us, as this one was. I have no questions in my mind, that this guy got used to over-use his power in class and maybe, he didn't ralize that he was crossing the line because he got used to be in this comfortable position of authority. I took other class with him last term, and he would constantly make the students feel really small. Everyone seemed afraid of him, as he always told us that he has the power to control our marks. I am not the only one feeling uncomfortable with him. He also has no rights to say to a female student who is overweight that she is fat, when she is lying down in bed pretending to be the patient. Overweight people already have issues of their own and who is he to say whatever is in his head? Why does he need to call students to the corner and ask personal questions? Who is he to tell another student who is uncomfortable with him to take anxiety pills, etc?
I just want you to know, that I have no intentions of ruining his career, however, I have no regrets of talking to the dean or nursing coordinator. Someone IN THE ADMINISTRATION needed to be aware of this situation, so hopefully it won't happen again. I needed to do this to have a peace in mind. I needed to do this to let him know how I felt, and how my other classmates felt, even though they didn't say anything. I requested changes and will continue following up. I also want you to know that usually I am not a shy person, as I have a male physician, who does pap smear and other pelvic examination on me, but there are guys out there that for some reason make us feel threatend and scared.
I think that when you build rapport and respect your patients privacy, it's a win-win situation. That guy was insensitive to me, he grabbed my panties when I was saying "no" and his comments about pubic hair were not a joke, as no one laughed. In fact, the other students who were in the other cubicles, also didn't find it funny! Who cares if he has seen lots of pubic hair? That whole situation wasn't about him, it was about me, plus I am not his patient and although he is my instructor, he is a stranger, and not my nurse because I wasn't sick and in need of his helping hands. He could had asked me if it was ok to touch me, and not put his hands on my panties when he knew by my reaction that I didn't want him touching me.
If some of you don't consider this sexual offense or assalt, it's ok.. but I was the one lying there and I am the only one who can say for sure how I felt. I felt violated and felt yes, that he crossed my comfort zone. At a hospital setting, when you in fact have a health condition and are surrounded by people that are being paid to care for you and monitor your vital signs, etc, it's a different story, but at a school setting, he could had perfectly used a manequin/model or a willing student. Why instead of approaching me and talk about the other organs in the abdomen, he went straight to my pubic bone??????? He has no rights to put his dirty hands on us, period! He played mind games with us for the whole semester, and didn't care for the way we felt. I heard that in the previous 2 years that he taught this course, he never touched a student, but they all complain of his authority and teaching methods.
Because I don't have intentions of ruining his career at this moment (in fact I never had such intentions), I am giving him a chance to change, so I won't phone the police. As I said before, I already noticed positive changes in his classes and he seems to be respecting us more, and also seemed less judgemental and bossy. Before, he wanted us wearing panties and bra, but for the next clinical course in january, he already gave us the program outline saying that we can wear shorts, t-shirts or tank tops as I requested.
Nursing school doesn't need to be stressful and I am one of the best students in my class, so I deserve to be treated with respect, because I am not attending this college just for fun. Also, there is no way I am quitting the nursing program or transfer to another university. If there is one person that needs to change, this person isn't me. If I hear that this ever happens again, than I will encourage the students to do the same I did.
If we don't stand up for ourselves, who will?? So Dave.. I don't think you should be so worried about being a male nursing student, but "ask" for permission before touching a woman/classmate... and explain to her why and what you will be doing. It never hurts to be gentle.
well when you add all the little details like that (which were omitted previously) then yes, he is out of line. He's just one of those people who gets off on having the power and control over other people which is very unfortunate. I would never have tolerated a teacher like that. I would have formed a petition or a letter and had anywilling classmates sign the letter about the horrendous teaching. Then I would have sent it to that professor, to the course coordinator to the dean of nursing to the dean of the health & sciences department then to the dean/president/vice president of the entire school.
I'm glad that at least his mannerisms are looking up. I hope it continues to stay that way for you guys. Stand your grounds and if he talks down to you (or any other classmate) go to him after class and say "your comment about x was highly inappropriate and I found it offensive/embaressing/inappropritate/etc". Hey may not be aware of his comments because he's been that way his whole life and everyone has just tolerated it instead of confronting him on it.
I am gentle and I do ask permission, that is why the gals all want me touching them :chuckle
All kidding aside, I started out telling you if you felt uneasy than by all means he was wrong. If this was an isolated incident, than he has been warned. If it is a pattern, then he should be dealt with. ANd since you rasied a flag, if it ever happens again, I am sure administration will do the right thing and can his butt.
As far a palpating your pubic bone, I guess I have a hard time imagining a guy trying to be inappropriate (perverted) in front of an audience. His comments, if they offended you, then he was wrong and it sounds as though he apologized.
I am glad he is responding kindly to your complaints and being more student friendly.
Now if I can figure out how to get all the egomaniacal, super authoritarian, uptight, cold, calus, obnoxious and power hungry professors in line at my school it would be a much happier place. But then again, we would need a new school as there would be no one left to teach...
Good luck to all, I don;t know about you but I still have 3 exams to go and can;t wait for winter break. 1 more semester to go...:balloons:
I am gentle and I do ask permission, that is why the gals all want me touching them :chuckle
All kidding aside, I started out telling you if you felt uneasy than by all means he was wrong. If this was an isolated incident, than he has been warned. If it is a pattern, then he should be dealt with. ANd since you rasied a flag, if it ever happens again, I am sure administration will do the right thing and can his butt.
As far a palpating your pubic bone, I guess I have a hard time imagining a guy trying to be inappropriate (perverted) in front of an audience. His comments, if they offended you, then he was wrong and it sounds as though he apologized.
I am glad he is responding kindly to your complaints and being more student friendly.
Now if I can figure out how to get all the egomaniacal, super authoritarian, uptight, cold, calus, obnoxious and power hungry professors in line at my school it would be a much happier place. But then again, we would need a new school as there would be no one left to teach...
Good luck to all, I don;t know about you but I still have 3 exams to go and can;t wait for winter break. 1 more semester to go...:balloons:
Best, Dave:)
Dave, I am just wondering if for a minute, you could put yourself in HER shoes, and imagine how you would feel if it happened to you.
Since MOST nursing students are females, and it had been you laying on that bed, with a female instructor, and even a mix of nursing students...some male and female, how would you feel if the instructor had pulled down on your jeans, stuck her hand down there and "palpated"....telling everyone standing there "This is a member or a pubic bone"?
And maybe she made a comment about the "size" or amount of hair or whatever.....just how would you feel?
Do you think it would be funny or humorous if it were you?
Come on, that's not fair. How I would look at it has nothing to do with it. Personally, I volunteer for all the lay down and play patient roles so the rest of my class doesn't have to feel uncomfortable. That's just me, I don't have a problem with someone touching me and or making an inappropriate joke from time to time. I am not saying anyone else has to agree with me, that's just me.
I said in my first post, if he is a pervert...load the gun, I'll be happy to be the one that pulls the trigger.
Just be sure it is not an over-reaction on the part of the student and actually a pervert in action. It sounds to the OP's credit that she is handling it both professionally and calmly as she should.
Enough said on this. I hope you all a great night.
Come on, that's not fair. How I would look at it has nothing to do with it. Personally, I volunteer for all the lay down and play patient roles so the rest of my class doesn't have to feel uncomfortable. That's just me, I don't have a problem with someone touching me and or making an inappropriate joke from time to time. I am not saying anyone else has to agree with me, that's just me.
I said in my first post, if he is a pervert...load the gun, I'll be happy to be the one that pulls the trigger.
Just be sure it is not an over-reaction on the part of the student and actually a pervert in action. It sounds to the OP's credit that she is handling it both professionally and calmly as she should.
Enough said on this. I hope you all a great night.
Dave:)
Nothing line a string of laughter and jokes to make someone's concern and worry so validated. That's pretty insulting. And i can only hope that people who think this is light-hearted are never in the situation the OP describes, or if they are, i at least hope that no one views it as an opportunity to kid around about it.
Here's a brief refresher on the first post:
And he reached down my panties and started touching my pubic bone, not taking into consideration that he was crossing my comfort zone and didn't respect the fact that I didn't want him touching me. Then when he grabbed my jeans to drop even more I said "NO".. and he ended up making comments about my pubic hair, as there was no reason for me to be shy because he had seen lots, and he looked at the two students and said that eventually we have to be forceful with patients.
No means no, plain and simple. Heck, a nurse wouldn't make comments on a pt.'s pubic hair like that. That would be one of the first red flags for me that something's not right about it..
Specializes in Infection Preventionist/ Occ Health.
No means no, plain and simple. Heck, a nurse wouldn't make comments on a pt.'s pubic hair like that. That would be one of the first red flags for me that something's not right about it..
:yeahthat:
Finally! Dave, I think that your jokes are completely inappropriate. Patients are going to be uncomfortable, but they have a right to refuse treatment at any point during a procedure. She said no, so her instructor should have stopped immediately! As my nursing professor stated yesterday in lecture, continuing to perform a procedure after a patient asks you to stop is considered assault.
That would be one of the first red flags for me that something's not right about it..
Balder_LPN, LPN
458 Posts
Most areas unwanted touching is at the least 4th degree assault. And what a police officer is willing to arrest you for is not the same thing as what a prosecuting atty will issue a warrant for. At the least an officer should take a report and forward to the PA to evaluate what charges are appropriate and issue the correct warrant for the police to serve.