i don't want my post to be the venue for an LPN-RN debate...this is just my opinion about the topic...
i understand that not EVERYBODY want to be an RN and that NOT everyone stays as an LPN...different situations calls for a different approach...we as nurses should be bonded and not debate amongst ourselves of who has the best career...it's hard enough explaining to the lay person what we do and how important we are and not "just nurses"...that we don't need to badmouth each other...
Nevermind, I just read the NC Nurse Practice Act and NOWHERE in the ENTIRE act is the word or term "Professional" used. In some cases such as the the differences between LPNs and RN's its OK not to use the word (IMO) but not to use it at all in defining what a nurse is, is just rediculous as it implies that NO nurses are professionals. I have even been told by a supervisor at a clinic that USED to employ me that "nursing" and even "medicine" are no longer looked at as professions...they are treated like business expenses...and then we wonder why "the system" is in the state it is in. I am only a 1st year ADN student....What have I got myself into??????????
I'm sorry you find the extra education a "load of bull", but many of us who did take the extra step certainly do not find it a "load of bull." I think that your comments may be percieved as being offensive; certainly you would feel the same if I said LPN school was "a load of bull." Thanks.
And to answer your question, they sure do. Orthopedic surgery, for example, is often coined "real man's medicine." Specialties are more favored over general and family practice. It's called human nature. [/b]
I do tend to agree with blue sky on this ...give the nursing student some classes on medical ethics, diversity in healthcare, and an additional semester of patho and bypass the concepts in research and what not for those who plan on following an educational path. I have been in school forever and wished many times someone spent more time on acid base balance and less on mid-range theory. (actually i think that is the only term i have managed to retain).
And I think what Blue sky was trying to say was that in medicine you rarely hear one doc bad mouth another. Even in cases where there is witnessed bad medicine docs follow a wonderful code of keeping their mouth shut instead of saying something demeaning or disparaging.
And while i think speicalities are more glorified personally I think that orthopedic medicine should have the term 'medicine' removed from it. Most of these docs can't remember to reorder basic meds postop. I tend to think they are closer to carpenters.
Specializes in jack of all trades, master of none.
In the Illinois Nurse Practice Act, it says that an RN can work in the capacity of an LPN (say there is no available RN position) but that nurse licensed as an RN, working as an LPN, will still be held to the RN standards.
I have been an LPN, and now an RN. Sorry, there is a difference, but both are still nurses, JMO.
Nevermind, I just read the NC Nurse Practice Act and NOWHERE in the ENTIRE act is the word or term "Professional" used. In some cases such as the the differences between LPNs and RN's its OK not to use the word (IMO) but not to use it at all in defining what a nurse is, is just rediculous as it implies that NO nurses are professionals. I have even been told by a supervisor at a clinic that USED to employ me that "nursing" and even "medicine" are no longer looked at as professions...they are treated like business expenses...and then we wonder why "the system" is in the state it is in. I am only a 1st year ADN student....What have I got myself into??????????
Jim, I think the concept used by the NC BON is that everyone in the field is a professional. Once you apply that concept, you don't need use the word in the job description or practice act. The NC Nursing Practice Act, is written to bind nursing as a profession not to drive a wedge between the different levels. Labeling one type of Nurse a "Professional" and another type of Nurse a "Technical" is counter productive and belittles our chosen career field.
Interns, Residents, Specialists, and Fellows in Medicine all have different levels of education yet all are referred to as Physicians. Yet a Fellow can have 12 more years training & education than someone right out of medical school. No one considers this odd. Yet we as Nurses seem to feel that certain Nurses can't be a professional because they haven't reached an arbitrarily set level of education. Certain RNs look down on LPNs, Certain BSNs look down on ADNs and Diploma Nurses. How can we expect others to look upon us as professionals when we don't even look upon each other as professionals?
I had a Hospital Commander, in the Army, who forbade the use of the term "paraprofessional". This was a term applied to enlisted health care providers. He stated that we are all professionals in the care of patients; MDs, DOs, DDSs, RNs, LPNs, CNAs, RPTs, Pharmacists, RTs, Radiology Techs, Lab Techs, etc.... His stance was that expected us all to be a professional and act professionally at all times. That directive of his was initially met with resistance by those who felt that a "professional" was someone who had a achieved a certain level of education (sound familiar? It's a common concept on this board). Once that policy had been in place for a while, the petty BS bickering between different levels of health care providers dwindled, communication improved, and the quality of patient care improved. Nor did it make those who held higher degrees seem "less" in the eyes of those they looked down on before. Yes a Major still outranked a Master Sergeant, but if they treated each other as the professionals they were then everyone came out ahead.
It is a shame that we can't pull together like that in the Nursing Profession. No, there are those of us that are too busy putting down other Nurses to make themselves feel more important. "I went to school for 4 years, you only went to school for 1 year. That makes me a professional and you nothing". What a crock! Until that kind of thinking dies off, we will never get ahead as a profession. That is what you are getting yourself into. Is it worth it? It was for me, it might be for you. You won' t know until you finish school, pass your boards and become a Professional Nurse.
Thanks for the post and YES I couldnt agree more with what you are saying. I just found it odd that no where in the NC Nurse Practice Act was the word professional mentioned. Not in terms of what is or isnt a "professional" nurse but nursing as a "profession" in itself......thats what really struck me. I would really like to know just how many people (non nurses) feel that nursing is NOT a profession.
I was kinda being sarcastic when I said "what am I getting myself into". I have been in medicine in one form or another for over 10 years so I am aware of alot of the ins and outs, just getting my license now and looking forward to seeing how far I can take it from there. I have learned alot in my few years around medicine and I do know that one thing I would like to avoid if at all possible is the politics and the back stabbing that I saw sooooo much of in the past. I was able to avoid it for awhile and then just somehow got caught up in it and ended up leaving the medical "profession" for a few years. Now I am back with a little more maturity, a new attitude, more motivation and an actual goal that I can see getting closer everyday. I can say one thing though...I AM a professional....student :chuckle
I do tend to agree with blue sky on this ...give the nursing student some classes on medical ethics, diversity in healthcare, and an additional semester of patho and bypass the concepts in research and what not for those who plan on following an educational path. I have been in school forever and wished many times someone spent more time on acid base balance and less on mid-range theory. (actually i think that is the only term i have managed to retain).
And that's where we'll have to disagree. But in the meantime, the point I was trying to make was to be sensitive to the other end of the spectrum. If I came on here and announced that I feel an LPN education is a load of bull because it lacks so many things and reinforces the concept of nursing being "pink collar," I think I would have my posting priviledges revoked.
The message being, I'm sorry for those who find education a waste of time and I'm sorry for those who find research worthless. But there many of us who don't and quite frankly, have our careers based off of such concepts. There are always two sides of the story, and while you can probably demonstrate to me the negative side effects of a nurse not having a grasp on acid-base balance, I can also demonstrate to you the negative side effects of nurses not even having a grasp of their own profession outside of pyschomotor skills.
I never said research in general was useless- I merely claimed that in my opinion, the few cursory extra classes offered at the BSN level do not really impact the daily practice of hospital nursing in a way that can't be compensated for by independent study. I was not making a sweeping statement about research- or any other aspect of the nursing field.
Furthermore, your LPN argument amounts to "I'd be shot if I said LPNs were less competent". But I didn't say BSNs were less competent, I said that in my opinion they (we) are not inherently *more* competent because of the B and the S. The analogy, therefore, is not accurate.
Furthermore, your LPN argument amounts to "I'd be shot if I said LPNs were less competent".
I also never said, even for the sake of the argument, that LPNs are less competent. Ever. My example was if I said LPN school was a "load of bull" for whatever reason. I used your own words.
Your claim that those "extra" classes do not impact hospital bedside practice is inaccurate. There are many, many ways to impact bedside practice; some are by the front-end and more direct and some are by the back-end and more indirect. Advanced degreed nurses who work in staff development, for example, influence bedside practice from the back-end, by ensuring that the nurses who do the bedside care are doing so competently and with evidence-based practice in mind. And even nurses on the floor, who are versed in nursing research and professional issues, can influence and improve bedside practice by being professional advocates on their own floors, being involved in Practice Councils and Development Councils and by using real research to implement new nursing policies and procedures.
Again, my point, is I can trace back all the way to the first research class and the first undergraduate statistics course the influence to bedside care. I thought the argument here was we are all valuable, yes? Well in the valuable argument are included the BSN and MSN nurses as well. And I guess I feel that when you state, in effect, that the courses that differentiate BSN and MSNs from ADNs/diploma/LPNs are a "load of bull", (theory, research, stats) you are stating that those nurses and their training is a "load of bull." And that is what I disagree with.
I had a Hospital Commander, in the Army, who forbade the use of the term "paraprofessional". This was a term applied to enlisted health care providers. He stated that we are all professionals in the care of patients; MDs, DOs, DDSs, RNs, LPNs, CNAs, RPTs, Pharmacists, RTs, Radiology Techs, Lab Techs, etc.... His stance was that expected us all to be a professional and act professionally at all times. That directive of his was initially met with resistance by those who felt that a "professional" was someone who had a achieved a certain level of education (sound familiar? It's a common concept on this board). Once that policy had been in place for a while, the petty BS bickering between different levels of health care providers dwindled, communication improved, and the quality of patient care improved. Nor did it make those who held higher degrees seem "less" in the eyes of those they looked down on before. Yes a Major still outranked a Master Sergeant, but if they treated each other as the professionals they were then everyone came out ahead.
The old addage:: treat others as you would want to be treated?
I think you commander had the right idea. THis topic is such a deadbeat one yet guilty as the others it is sometimes too enticing to pass by without putting in your 2 cents.
I must say that working in the acute side of medicine and being an APN I can not tell you who is who as far as degree goes. Much of a person's practice is based in a general work ethic. (IMO). I can also say that many times I have turned to a NURSE to give a directive or verbal order and was surprised when they announced they were an LPN and couldn't take the order.
Also, I appreciate the point made about 'behind the scenes' nurses driving the research process in application. Thanks.
PilotJim68
145 Posts
Nevermind, I just read the NC Nurse Practice Act and NOWHERE in the ENTIRE act is the word or term "Professional" used. In some cases such as the the differences between LPNs and RN's its OK not to use the word (IMO) but not to use it at all in defining what a nurse is, is just rediculous as it implies that NO nurses are professionals. I have even been told by a supervisor at a clinic that USED to employ me that "nursing" and even "medicine" are no longer looked at as professions...they are treated like business expenses...and then we wonder why "the system" is in the state it is in. I am only a 1st year ADN student....What have I got myself into??????????