LPN Petition to Take RN Boards

elkpark · May 24, 2008

I don't think that's what the poster was getting at.
Although on this board I've seen people mention how they learned "so much" going from LPN to RN, the vast majority I've actually worked with on a daily basis who have done the LPN to RN bridge programs had the same complaints about much repetition of material and a lot of time spent in med/surg type clinical rotations getting graded on the same things they do at work every day as LPN/LVN's.
Now LPN/LVN's who don't have hospital experience, that may be another story. But I personally believe that time in clinicals could be much better spent than checking off LPN to RN students on drawing up insulin, inserting foleys, or hanging IV piggy-backs. Talk about repetition.
I'm not saying that I favor LPN/LVN's challenging the RN boards without more formal education or that programs like Excelsior are the perfect answer either, but from what I've seen working at teaching hospitals in several states over the years, LPN/LVN to RN "bridge" programs in general need to be totally revamped.
The programs should be structured more toward the actual learning needs of these unique students instead of trying to give them a one semester "bridge" course and then trying to integrate them with generic ADN students during the second year.
Second year generic ADN students and LPN/LVN to RN students are apples and oranges with completely different learning needs. They should not be taught in the same classroom.

I don't disagree with anything you've said. I have many problems with how all levels of undergraduate nursing education are organized and implemented these days!

I agree with your concerns about experienced LPN (RN) students having very different needs than "generic" nursing students. I think the issue is, though, that there aren't enough returning-LPN students to justify having separate, "free-standing" programs, and, as we all know from reading these boards, the students want the programs as convenient and close to home as possible and most would not be willing to travel a longer distance to attend a separate, specialty LPN-to-RN program that was centrally located for a larger area (in order to have a larger student body to justify/support a "specialty" program). I've taught in an ADN program that accepted LPNs into the second year, and it was basically to do the local LPNs who wanted to continue their education a favor, to provide them a way to become eligible for RN licensure; but there were only a few LPNs (per year) in our area who wanted to do that and there was no way it would ever be practical or cost-effective to try to create a separate, LPN-only program ... Maybe the situation is different in larger, urban areas.

Also, I would draw your attention to how many people post here about how they're only going into an LPN program because their local "bridge" program is easier to get into than the generic RN programs, and how many people post here about how they're already applying for bridge programs before they even complete their LPN program -- apparently, many of the LPNs applying for these programs are brand new LPN grads and aren't any more experienced than the RN students they will be joining.

I freely admit there's no perfect answer that will do a good job of meeting every individual's needs. But I don't think the answer is to water down the educational and licensure standards and requirements; we've done more than enough of that already, IMHO.

NursesRmofun, ASN, RN · May 24, 2008

Sorry, but I would not sign the petition for LPNs to be grandfathered in as RNs or for LPNs to take RN boards without further education. I also believe the further education is a good and necessary thing. I was an LPN for 12 years prior to becoming a RN....

SuesquatchRN, BSN, RN · May 24, 2008

Personally, I think one of the big problems with current nursing programs, LPN or RN, is the emphasis on "critical thinking" and the lack of extensive clinical training. The 3-year ADN's I know were running their floors at graduation and spent most of their time IN the hospital caring for patients. I have heard too many instructors say that once you get to the floor you'll pull it all together.

I was taught critical thinking from the time I could talk by parents who thought themselves and expected their children to do the same.

The experienced LPN's with whom I've worked have often been a bit too married to the care plan and unwilling to deviate from what was written down. We were not trained to work independently and just because LTC's aren't willing to pay for RN's doesn't mean that we aren't often practicing beyond our scope and ability.

As to California and those states that make it next to impossible for an LPN to become an RN, take that up with the RN's who make those rules. They are overly protective of their status IMHO, but that doesn't mean that more educatin isn't necessary. It means, once again, that nurses are their own worst enemies.

elkpark · May 24, 2008

Personally, I think one of the big problems with current nursing programs, LPN or RN, is the emphasis on "critical thinking" and the lack of extensive clinical training. The 3-year ADN's I know were running their floors at graduation and spent most of their time IN the hospital caring for patients. I have heard too many instructors say that once you get to the floor you'll pull it all together.
I was taught critical thinking from the time I could talk by parents who thought themselves and expected their children to do the same.

I completely agree, and that's my main beef with nursing education as it's currently designed and implemented.

NursesRmofun, ASN, RN · May 24, 2008

Personally, I think one of the big problems with current nursing programs, LPN or RN, is the emphasis on "critical thinking" and the lack of extensive clinical training. The 3-year ADN's I know were running their floors at graduation and spent most of their time IN the hospital caring for patients. I have heard too many instructors say that once you get to the floor you'll pull it all together.
I was taught critical thinking from the time I could talk by parents who thought themselves and expected their children to do the same.
The experienced LPN's with whom I've worked have often been a bit too married to the care plan and unwilling to deviate from what was written down. We were not trained to work independently and just because LTC's aren't willing to pay for RN's doesn't mean that we aren't often practicing beyond our scope and ability.
As to California and those states that make it next to impossible for an LPN to become an RN, take that up with the RN's who make those rules. They are overly protective of their status IMHO, but that doesn't mean that more educatin isn't necessary. It means, once again, that nurses are their own worst enemies.

I am not sure that it is that RNs do not want LPNs to get ahead. However, that said,- I think a lot of RNs feel that there are 'dues to be paid' (on the more selfish and human side) and education to be had....which is the more legitimate side, IMO.

I *did* learn a lot in my RN program. Just for added info- I did not go to a short cut program for LPN to RN either, although I do believe in such programs! There just aren't many good ones out there, IMO!

I have to say,- I was not one of the LPNs who practiced outside of my scope of practice when I was an LPN. I was trained to do extra skills like IV therapy, but it was in my scope of practice once I learned the skill. I never worked with central lines because it was not in my scope of practice in my state. I did not do a full assessment on my patients. The RN I was working with was responsible for that.

SuesquatchRN, BSN, RN · May 24, 2008

I am not sure that is that RNs do not want LPNs to get ahead. However, that said,- I think a lot of RNs feel that there are 'dues to be paid' (on the more selfish and human side) and education to be had....which is the more legitimate side, IMO.

I certainly don't believe that of most RN's. I have to wonder, though, why certain states make it next to impossible for an LPN to get to the next level without going f/t.

NursesRmofun, ASN, RN · May 24, 2008

I certainly don't believe that of most RN's. I have to wonder, though, why certain states make it next to impossible for an LPN to get to the next level without going f/t.

Some people don't believe in short cuts, I guess. Perhaps they believe everyone should do all the work.

I think there should be a good LPN to RN program lasting 1 year (full time) - and maybe 2 years (part-time), in every community. I don't think LPNs need the first year of the RN program! I think they need the 2nd year of the Assoc. Degree program along with the degree credit courses- the basic AAS/AS courses.

I went part-time for three years. It was three years that would have passed by anyway. I was lucky to go to a local community college and only spent about $3000 to go back for the full part-time (evening) program....give or take.

Jules A, MSN · May 24, 2008

I certainly don't believe that of most RN's. I have to wonder, though, why certain states make it next to impossible for an LPN to get to the next level without going f/t.

In my area it is next to impossible to find an ADN program that isn't full time either so I don't think that is a unique hardship for LPNs. I happen to think we have more flexibility than the average person because we can work most any shift imaginable and still make a decent living. I'm not saying it is easy or there aren't sacrifices to make but it is very possible.

SuesquatchRN, BSN, RN · May 24, 2008

I think that we are arguing and we're on the same side.

pagandeva2000, LPN · May 24, 2008

My college has a bridge program for LPN to RN, and my friends that took it told me that essentially, it was no different from the LPN program they just completed in regard to content. They said there was a bigger emphasis on assessment and delegation, but otherwise, they considered it to be a waste of time. I do hear of repetitiveness regarding the skills portion, though, which, to me, is silly, but maybe some revamping will do.

While the average RN may not have issues with encouraging LPNs to go further or even widening our scope of practice, I suspect that the ANA does. What is annoying to me is that it seems that the ANA only supports RNs, not all NURSES (meaning us). Their decisions have an impact on us, yes, but we are not considered or included in their decision making process, which totally disregards us. I also think that if RNs were able to collectively advocate for team nursing, where everyone at the table can eat, it would take a load off of them. Again, I am not saying that the mainstream RNs working are against us, I am speaking of the powers that be.

And, sure, I agree with Sue, that we are emphasis on critical thinking and theory is prioritized over extensive clinical training. It is not always true that it will all tie together once you hit the floor, because the floor expects us to come in running. Most of the senior nurses had that extensive training-we didn't. Most programs seem to have two days a week, and not even a full shift. They prepared us to sit for NCLEX, but not necessarily how to survive nursing life. How can one apply critical thinking to nursing with no experience?? And, from what I notice, a new grad LPN as well as RN walks out of school green as grass these days, with not much to apply to daily situations. It is a matter of surviving the jungle. There is a real culture gap between what is currently taught verses the seasoned nurses and their expectations (since their schooling was more intense with clinical experiences than ours was).

NursesRmofun, ASN, RN · May 24, 2008

My college has a bridge program for LPN to RN, and my friends that took it told me that essentially, it was no different from the LPN program they just completed in regard to content. They said there was a bigger emphasis on assessment and delegation, but otherwise, they considered it to be a waste of time. I do hear of repetitiveness regarding the skills portion, though, which, to me, is silly, but maybe some revamping will do.

Not to argue...but I respectfully disagree that there is no difference between an LPN and a RN program. That would be silly....and it is not true. Actually, I have never even heard that rumored before. If it were a bridge program, it should be covering what was *not* covered in the other program. Doesn't make any sense, I am afraid. If it did happen, those students were shorted an education.

NursesRmofun, ASN, RN · May 24, 2008

I think that we are arguing and we're on the same side.

Sometimes a healthy discussion will sound like arguing. People have to remember that because people disagree, it does not have to involve being angry. Remain objective and try not to get insulting....that is my motto. You do have to understand and remember that certain things do trigger misunderstanding or anger is all. I try to be factual. If something sounds nonsensical, I will state that.