Should patients be allowed to refuse LPNs and CNAs?

Nurses LPN/LVN

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Last night on our med/surg unit, we had an elderly woman who was in wiht consitpation. Very stable patient, vitals within normal limits, fairly negative past medical history, no home meds, independent with ADLs...again, a very stable patient. No BM for 8 days...came in to ER via private vehicle with complaints of abdominal pain.

We are a small rural hospital, average patient census of 10. Last night we had nine patients. This woman decided that she did not want any LPNs or CNAs in her room. OK...we try to accomodate such requests, but on nights like this, we have one RN on med/surg and one in ER. ER was pretty busy, so the ER nurse did not have time to come to the floor to help. Other than the charge RN, we had two LPNs and one CNA...staffing well above what we normally have. Certainly, the RN had time to care for this patient, but this woman didn't even want the CNA or one of the LPNs to do the simple things like taking her vital signs, refilling her water pitcher, or emptying her commode. So...the RN not only was charge over 9 patients, but had to do all cares for this patient, simply because she did not want anyone but an RN.

I agree 100% that there should be an RN available for all patients, but not all patients require an RN as their primary nurse. In a small rural area like this one, sometimes you have to take an LPN, especially if you are stable and have a predictable outcome. Had we been busier or had an unstable patient, would we have been out of line to explain to this patient that there was an RN available if anything unexpected happened, but that due to staffing reasons, her assigned nurse would be an LPN? This happens every now and then and usually we are able to accomodate the requests of RNs only, but what about when we just can't do it?

Not that this is what the post is supposed to be about, but...for things like a foley, etc, I would rather have a female. One of my good friends at work is male and he agrees...if he were going to have a foley inserted he would rather have a male...not that all nurses haven't seen all parts or anything, but it's just a little more comfortable. However, I would not refuse anyone in an emergency or if there were no one else available.

A male OB nurse delivered my first baby and it was just an awesome experience. He gave the most amazing foot rubs and did better breast feeding instructions than I have ever seen. If I had been given a choice of him or the female that was on duty, I probably would have taken the female...I am glad I didn't have a choice...I would have missed out on an amazing nurse.

Specializes in LTC,Hospice/palliative care,acute care.
I don't buy it either Deb. MOST people understand, regardless of cultural or generational mores that they will be losing some privacy and that people of opposite genders may provide intimate care. MOST people get that.

I think people choose which bits of the past they want to take with them. I see elderly people using cell phones, computers, driving cars, and using credit cards. They lived through WWII, the Depression, the Civil Rights Era and the Vietnam war. They have adapted amazingly well to those changes in society but having a male nurse is just too strange? Naaaaa......

We may have to accomodate their requests but we do not have to normalize it by as you stated setting the male nurses with questions like "Are you okay with that?"

I can't explain it-I can tell you what a resident of mine says...Yes-a doctor delived her babies but she was asleep during the delivery-and that does not count (according to her).Her husband NEVER saw her naked butt-and she guesses that the undertaker will be the first guy to see it in broad daylight...She can barely figure out the payphone-never used a credit card,computer or even drove..She is not going to change now. I agree that we have to do what we can to help our male counterparts become accepted but there is a segemnt of society that is not going to change and in my opinion should NOT be forced to....they'll die out eventually-and then you'll only have ignorant s.o.'s in l&d--"I don't want no male nurse looking at my old ladies poontang" I see the difference clearly-I just can't put it into words that make sense
Specializes in Public Health, DEI.

I can see both sides of the debate-within-a-debate. I was fairly traumatized by a male gynecologist when I was around 21 (I wasn't abused, he was just very rough and not at all sensitive. It was only my third annual exam and I didn't have another one till four years later!) When I finally did go in for another, I asked if a female was available and one was. No prob, Bob. Now, of course, with this kind of visit, I could schedule with whoever I pleased and could have just gone elsewhere if a woman couldn't have seen me. But the woman who dxed my pregnancy was able to convince me that the male ob she referred me to was worth considering, and she was absolutely right. I can't imagine any woman having been more sensitive or competent than he was. Like I said in an earlier post, I would try to accommodate the request for a male or female nurse, if it was possible. If it wasn't, then the patient would have to choose betwixt a competent available person or delaying their care. I think I'd handle it the way the doctor who referred me to my OB handled her suggestion, though. She sat down and went through all the reasons she thought the male was the right doc for me. Most times a bit of "education" goes a long way towards enlightening our patients.

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Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.

Ok anyhow back to the OP. Can/should patients be able to refuse LPNs/CNAs in any situation of their choosing/preference?

Specializes in Public Health, DEI.

Okiedokiefine. But I really can't let the remark about the nude beaches go. HUH????

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Specializes in Public Health, DEI.
Well, it was just a comment about some people don't mind exposing everything....and some people do. That's all.

Yes, I understand what the comment was. I read it. I don't understand where it came from. Have you one iota of evidence that suggests ANYONE on this thread hangs out at nude beaches? (Not that I have anything against them if they do, to each their own). Just that I personally don't appreciate the implication, because that just isn't for me. That was quite a chasm you crossed to jump to your conclusion.

Ok, I did take it as a personal attack, but apology accepted. Done and over with.

But with this intimate thing.....I am a very modest person. I've been that way all my life. I can't HELP it. It's just part of me.

I am not seeing male nurses as potential sexual patners. It has nothing to do with SEX.

Some of yall who don't seem to understand where this is coming from might go to nude beaches everyday of the year and think nothing of it.

I'm not like that. I do not expose my body.

I would be very embarrassed to have to have a male nurse do very personal care for me. Now, I'm not talking about bringing me my meds, or starting an IV or something like that. But if I have to disrobe and bare every part of my body to a male nurse...well no, thank you I won't do it. And as a nurse, if a female patient expresses those feelings to me, I would do everything in my power to accommodate HER requests also, and would do the same for a man.

If I am sick and in the hospital, I don't think that would be a time for me to

try to lose my inhibitions. {sp?] Why should I try to do that at a time when I'm sick?

Try to understand....it's not about the NURSE is it?

Isn't this whole thing about the PATIENT anyway?

Where would we be if it were not for our patients? You or I neither one would have a job.

I do not see it as imposing on nursing personnel, for a female patient to say, "No, I'd prefer for a female nurse to do the foley catherization on me."

I would not ask for, as in OP senario, for a certain nurse, ie: RN, LPN, or black or white for everything that was done for me.

But where I have to disrobe and be exposed, I prefer female.

You know, we are all different. We were not raised in the same surroundings, and did not grow up with the same feelings about things.

Our experiences are what makes us who we are and you can't change that just because you're a nurse in the hospital, and in comes this little ole lady who wants only a female nurse for intimate treatments. WHY is that such a big deal to you?

I don't GET that part of it either.

If you are H*** bent on changing that part of nursing then do it one patient at a time. I'm sure there are plenty female patients who will accept intimate care from a male nurse. But for the one little lady who comes in and prefers it this way, you should have respect for HER and HER feelings, and not insist on being the provider of that particular care.

In fact I worked a part time job for a couple of years in a NH. We had male CNAs and I just loved all of them. They were very good to work with.

And they took care of those little ole ladies in the NH just like it was nothing.

The ladies accepted it. And I would think, "Gee, I hope they are okay with that."

But none ever expressed any desire to me to have female caregivers, so I didn't go around saying, "Hey hadn't you rather have a female aide?"

I don't know, maybe when I'm 90 years old it won't matter anymore, and by that time I won't give a hoot who is doing it, but at this point in my life, I wouldn't like it.

Anyway, that's my personal feelings.

Never been to a nude beach and i am way to modest to even think of parading around in front of strangers 1/2 naked, let alone bare naked!

Being uncomfortable with ones own body is not about modesty. It is about not being able to differentiate between professional and personal contact.

As nurses, it is our duty to help our pts learn to become comfortable with all care givers, be they RN/LPN/CNA, male or female.

Yes, I have been slapped at by little old men who, even after being told about the foley, insisted I should not be going there. I even had one, just the other night as a matter of fact, that would not let me change his attends (my CNA was busy so I was going to help him change) Seems he thought I am his wife (God only knows why) and I had been mean to him (I wouldn't let him leave the room and insisted he go back to bed) so I wasn't going to get any of "that!" .......... No, I did not change his attends, he ended up staying wet until my CNA (happened to be a man) was available to change him.

I never meant to say we should never give into the desires of a pts preferences, but I am saying we, as nurses, need to help all pts, regardless of age, etc to understand that a nurse is a nurse is a nurse.

Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.

The nude beach comment was really out of line if you ask me. But no one asked me did they Rofl???

Good night everyone It's been .....

interesting.

Yes, I understand what the comment was. I read it. I don't understand where it came from. Have you one iota of evidence that suggests ANYONE on this thread hangs out at nude beaches? (Not that I have anything against them if they do, to each their own). Just that I personally don't appreciate the implication, because that just isn't for me. That was quite a chasm you crossed to jump to your conclusion.

It was ONLY a comparison!!!!

Why are you making a big deal with this?

Let it go!

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