Is it true that a BSN will be mandatory soon?

[szccdw]

An instructor of mine (I'm in another state) stated that she recently went to a national educators conference and that they were saying that within the next several years in NY it would be mandatory to have your BSN. Does anyone know anything about this? Thanks

[CraigB-RN, MSN, RN]

YUp, my BA and Med aparently aren't worth the paper they are printed on. But to keep it in perspective. I understand the teaching thing, Not being able to teach without the MSN, even though I don't agree with it. It's the transistion from one level to the other than annoys me. I learned NOTHING new in the adn to BSN program I did, just so I could get an MSN and teach. One of my other basic frustrations, having gone the BA and thenMEd route, I have a basic understanding of educatinoal models and the one we use in nursing is basicly flawed. Although it works, it is wastfull of time and resources, and really doesn't do a lot of the things it claims, like produce "well rounded" nurses. But then again, neither do most educational tracts. My IT friends gripe about taking art appreaciation and lit, they did it, but none of them can tell a Rembrant from a Picaso, and I still to this day, many years later haven't figured out what writing a "Self Actualization Journal" did to help me as a BSN, "when I had already been a DON as a ADN with a grad degree.

I just haven't figured out how to affect a change. Inertia ia hard thing to overcome. As to loosing brilliant people, well I think that argument can be said for no matter what change we make, someone will always fall by the wayside. Our tast is to convince people that this is a valid, fulfilling proffesion and that nursing is something they want to do, no matter what the educational path they have to take. Now I"m off to read about how Jane Watson made it possible for me to know ehen to titrate the Dopamine drip my septic patient is on. Oops shame on me, just a little sarcasm there.

Boy I am rambling today. As to nursing care plans and dx. Wehn I was learning them, they at least helpted me learn a thoght process. Now my nurse interns tell me they didn't learn anything, the comptuer printed the care plan for them. Hmmm. So much for that. As to nursing diagnosis. I seemt o recal someone trying to convince me that this was something that was going to improve my ability to make $$ by allow us to bill for our services because we were "diagnosing" and this wa 20 years ago and I'm stil not "Billing" for services.

Maybe we can ger find a school, that is willing to work with a board of nursing to produce something new, something that is real and solid. I can dream can't I.

[Susan9608]

There is nothing wrong with a BSN.

Really? Then why all of this?

I just wanted to say that a BS is BS

I have a lot of friends that are RN-BSN grads. Guess what? They are clueless.

as a manager, why would i pay more for a nurse with classes in underwater basket weaving (yes, that's got as much to do with bedside nursing as the bsn education)?

Obviously there's *some* value to a BSN program or a) BSNs wouldn't get paid even a dime more (and I get paid $1.50/hour more than ADN nurses - and that goes up per year that I'm employed there), b) BSNs wouldn't be preferred for management positions, and c) a BSN wouldn't even be being considered for the entry point into professional nursing, and d) so many nurses wouldn't go back to school to get their BSN.

adns will keep being aorund if anything because they demand less than many bsns.

Did you ever wonder why that is?

I have no doubt that there are many find ADN nurses. I have no doubt about that. But I fail to understand why so many nurses are fighting advancing the profession and professional education. Why hold nursing and nurses back?

Listen, I have many friends that went to BSN schools and have great nursing careers but it took them a little longer to catch up to other programs that had more clinical experiences.

I have yet to see an ADN program that has as much clinical time offered as a BSN program. I went to 2 different BSN programs, and have worked with many BSN programs and ADN programs as a nurse. I find that the BSN students spend far more time on the floor than the ADN students - in my area, at least - and that the BSN students do far more during their clinical time. The ADN students generally simply observe.

So your sweeping generalization about ADN programs providing superior clinical experience just proves the adage that all generalizations are false.

And this statement:

My current ADN program could definitely use a pharmacology course (only offered with BSN in schools by me) and a lot more lab skills teaching

proves the benefit of a BSN program. Pharmacology is a basic staple of nursing.

And the mere fact that I'm typing this post proves yet again to me the benefit of standardizing nursing education. If we had a unified educational entry, we wouldn't be able to back-bite each other and fight amongst ourselves over whose program was more worthwhile, would we?

[hpcat]

Really? Then why all of this?

Obviously there's *some* value to a BSN program or a) BSNs wouldn't get paid even a dime more (and I get paid $1.50/hour more than ADN nurses - and that goes up per year that I'm employed there), b) BSNs wouldn't be preferred for management positions, and c) a BSN wouldn't even be being considered for the entry point into professional nursing, and d) so many nurses wouldn't go back to school to get their BSN.

Did you ever wonder why that is?

I have no doubt that there are many find ADN nurses. I have no doubt about that. But I fail to understand why so many nurses are fighting advancing the profession and professional education. Why hold nursing and nurses back?

I have yet to see an ADN program that has as much clinical time offered as a BSN program. I went to 2 different BSN programs, and have worked with many BSN programs and ADN programs as a nurse. I find that the BSN students spend far more time on the floor than the ADN students - in my area, at least - and that the BSN students do far more during their clinical time. The ADN students generally simply observe.

So your sweeping generalization about ADN programs providing superior clinical experience just proves the adage that all generalizations are false.

And this statement:

proves the benefit of a BSN program. Pharmacology is a basic staple of nursing.

And the mere fact that I'm typing this post proves yet again to me the benefit of standardizing nursing education. If we had a unified educational entry, we wouldn't be able to back-bite each other and fight amongst ourselves over whose program was more worthwhile, would we?

If you'd actually read my post, you would see that I am for more education, my problem is that there is no standardization (ex. clinicals vs. no clinicals in an RN-to-BSN program), so there is no way to ensure that the BSN education you get is going to add to your practice. I'd rather take one pharmacology course for a few hundred dollars to enhance my ADN than spend thousands for two more years of theory courses that don't offer additional lab or clinical skills. Otherwise it's just getting a bunch of letters after my name with nothing to support it.

And since my BA is in social and behavioral sciences (heavily psychology and sociology), does it not stand to reason that I have an edge over a BSN when it comes to a nursing specialty like psychiatric nursing or case management?

I think many RNs do go back because they want more education and more opportunities. Often there are positions that ask for BSN or MSN. But I know plenty of nurses who were hired for management positions because of their experience, not their education.

Higher levels degrees are NOT always appreciated by hospitals, you're one of the few. My SIL will only get 50 cents more an hour for a BSN at her hospital (part of a huge business conglomerate, as so many hospitals are nowadays). She's going for certification in her specialty instead - she'll get the same pay raise.

Here's an incentive - how about higher pay levels - not a lousy $1.50 an hour (which works out to $3120 a year on a 40 hr week before taxes) - how about $10,000 a year or more pay difference? In the business world, you get major raises for major degrees. I know people who've even DOUBLED their salaries for getting a Bachelor's or Master's.

We need to PROVE to hospitals et al that the higher education is worth more, because clearly they haven't gotten the message. It has to start with excellent STANDARDIZED education that gives us VALUABLE, APPLICABLE skills and knowledge.

[traumahawk99]

the problem with all of this is that an adn education is sufficient to do the job of bedside nursing. any attempt to attach more requirements creates an artificial construct. whose construct do we accept?

requiring a bedside nurse to take addtional classes that are unrelated to the job simply because some have a psychological need for control over the profession just doesn't hold water, and is doomed to crumble under the economic reality of actually delivering bedside nursing in the real world. otherwise, the bsn would have been a requirement long ago.

why not make bedside nursing the exclusive province of msn educated nurses? it makes just as much sense as requiring a bsn. after all, if an msn was required, don't we all think nursing would be more respected? wouldn't this allow for an even greater level of standardization?

to argue that we need bsn as entry level to this profession because a 4 year degree is required in business or marketing or engineering is utter tomfoolery. what does this actually have to do with nursing? bartending is a profession, does this mean we should require a 4 year degree to tend bar?

[chestrockwell]

the problem with all of this is that an adn education is sufficient to do the job of bedside nursing. any attempt to attach more requirements creates an artificial construct. whose construct do we accept?

requiring a bedside nurse to take addtional classes that are unrelated to the job simply because some have a psychological need for control over the profession just doesn't hold water, and is doomed to crumble under the economic reality of actually delivering bedside nursing in the real world. otherwise, the bsn would have been a requirement long ago.

why not make bedside nursing the exclusive province of msn educated nurses? it makes just as much sense as requiring a bsn. after all, if an msn was required, don't we all think nursing would be more respected? wouldn't this allow for an even greater level of standardization?

to argue that we need bsn as entry level to this profession because a 4 year degree is required in business or marketing or engineering is utter tomfoolery. what does this actually have to do with nursing? bartending is a profession, does this mean we should require a 4 year degree to tend bar?

great post.

[jjjoy, LPN]

the problem with all of this is that an adn education is sufficient to do the job of bedside nursing.

good point

to argue that we need bsn as entry level to this profession because a 4 year degree is required in business or marketing or engineering is utter tomfoolery. what does this actually have to do with nursing? bartending is a profession, does this mean we should require a 4 year degree to tend bar?

I don't think it's utter tomfoolery, though perhaps somewhat tomfoolerish. Nursing and tending bar aren't exactly comparable professions.

How would you feel about high school teachers not needing a 4-year degree to teach? What about jr high teachers? Elementary? Kindergarten? Pre-school? The only one that doesn't require a 4-yr degree plus credentialling (usually adding a 5th year to one's basic education) is pre-school education. And while teachers don't get rich, they do get substantial raises for furthering their education without having to leave the classroom.

If all RNs needed BSNs (eventually) perhaps LPNs would be utilized even more in acute care and their programs expanded to cover more content and skills. After all, hospitals certainly won't line up to pay more to keep RNs at the bedside and RNs won't line up for crazy hospital work when they're qualified for other not-so-crazy nursing work that their BSN qualifies them for. LPNs would be glad to accept more responsibilities and higher pay.

I don't think a college degree should be required for all nursing jobs, but then I do think the different types of nursing jobs needs to be more clearly defined so that the level of education required for those different jobs is clear and rational. Now I'm dreaming!

[traumahawk99]

the focal point here is where the rubber meets the road. it's bedside nursing. that's where the mandatory bsn in being proposed, and that's where the tomfoolery lies.

and as far as bar tending and nursing being different professions.. that is exactly the point! marketing and business and computer programming and nursing are all very different professions. deciding that nursing should require a 4 year degree because another profession does is mixing apples and oranges and pears and bananas.

[pantheon]

Really? Then why all of this?

Helloooooooooo

I NEVER mentioned ADN programs with getting more clinical experience. I stated my particular Diploma program that was 3 years and that the 2nd week of school we were in the hospital. It gave us a huge advantage because we saw all areas of nursing because we had more experience clinically than a ADN or a BSN program. It took a little more time for my BSN friends to catch up to what the Diploma school had already taught us.

I was able to get experience in every field of nsg there is, even home care. I also got to go in the OR and see open heart surgery while the Surgeon explained step by step what he was doing.

This is in NJ and as you know NOT all Diploma programs or any program for that matter are the same. The fact my school is over 100 years old and still going speaks for itself.

Also a lot of people failed out. It was very tough. You had to get atleast an 80 on all nursing exams to pass! I was so prepared from this program that I got the minimum amount of questions on the N-CLEX which is 75 questions. I barely had to study because I was used to the schools high standards. Imagine getting a 79.3 and being told you failed or getting an 80 and being told that's a low "C"!

I'm almost done obtaining my BSN. My Diploma program always recommended getting a BSN, MSN, or even a PH.D so what's wrong with that Susan?

I just don't understand why you are so angry! Really, why are you so mad? If someone says to me your just finishing your BSN now? I don't get angry. I think "Hey I've been doing it better late than never!"

Sometimes when a person says negative things to me it goes in one ear and out the other. Life is too short. I worry more about my friend with Cardiomyopathy (IHSS). That is what's important. Who cares about some snide remark!

[suanna]

Been hearing this for 25 years and so far it ain't so.

[traumahawk99]

How would you feel about high school teachers not needing a 4-year degree to teach? What about jr high teachers? Elementary? Kindergarten? Pre-school? The only one that doesn't require a 4-yr degree plus credentialling (usually adding a 5th year to one's basic education) is pre-school education. And while teachers don't get rich, they do get substantial raises for furthering their education without having to leave the classroom.

what does this have to do with the argument at hand (bedside nursing, where someone can be trained to do a complete and competent job at an adn level)? why would it matter how i felt about teaching qualifications? again, we are mixing oranges and apples. irrelevant comparison.

If all RNs needed BSNs (eventually) perhaps LPNs would be utilized even more in acute care and their programs expanded to cover more content and skills. After all, hospitals certainly won't line up to pay more to keep RNs at the bedside and RNs won't line up for crazy hospital work when they're qualified for other not-so-crazy nursing work that their BSN qualifies them for. LPNs would be glad to accept more responsibilities and higher pay.

there is a shortage of those "not-so-crazy" nursing jobs where the bsn's are so desperately needed. in fact, there is already a whopping surplus of bsn's to fill those positions. so you're talking about making the profession smaller, so it can be a more exclusive club?

why do we need such "standardization" (and whose version of it)? we already have a standardized licensing requirement. it is the nclex exam. that some want to require a lot more fluff education in order to allow candidates to sit for this exam just doesn't make any sense whatsoever, giving the shortage of folks willing to work where the need actually is... at the bedside.

make no mistake. this move is a power grab by the self appointed pontificators in the university system. it's failed for the last 25 years, and it will fail for the next 25.

[chestrockwell]

personally, I think all nurses should have a bachelors degree at some point. It makes you a more well rounded person. But I disagree that a BSN is necessary as other degrees and majors provide enough liberal arts education.

[hpcat]

good point

I don't think a college degree should be required for all nursing jobs, but then I do think the different types of nursing jobs needs to be more clearly defined so that the level of education required for those different jobs is clear and rational. Now I'm dreaming!

Good point. One LPN in my class is going to nursing school because his coworkers convinced him to get his RN - they said he's doing the same work as them but not seeing the same pay. I think hospitals et al fuzz those lines a bit to save money. Another case for standardization.