Is it true that a BSN will be mandatory soon?

hpcat · Apr 29, 2008

In my area, it's the hospitals that are making it happen. One major teaching hospital will not hire ASN's at all. My hospital is requiring all ASN's to have a BSN by 2012.

A major teaching hospital has a major incentive to hire BSNs - they're making them! Good idea, actually.

This could work in areas where there are limited nursing opportunities and lots of nurses - but where I am, the huge number of hospitals alone (not counting LTC, clinics, private practices, etc.) makes it very competitive for the hospitals to get and retain nurses. Although we have one magnet hospital that tried to hire only BSNs or those pursuing their BSN, I notice they've eased up on their requirements and aren't pushing for it anymore. I think it limited their pool of candidates.

SecondGenRN · Apr 29, 2008

I live in Ontario, Canada and the required level of education needed to write the registration exam was changed to BSN in 2005. Those who were already registered are not required to get their BSN's but all new nurses are.

pantheon · Apr 29, 2008

I politely beg to differ with you on a couple points, pantheon.
I do not think I am a 'better nurse' just because of my BSN. But I am glad that I have it, because I did get the opportunity to learn some things not related to nursing that I would not have gotten to learn studying in an ADN program. And those things have made me a better person.
I'm not saying that ADN recipients are inferior people in any way. I'm just saying that I am grateful for the things that I learned. So, I do not view my BSN as 'BS', though we did make many a joke about it whilst in nursing school.:)
ADN, BSN, Diploma recipients - we need them all.

Hi Elvish,

Trust me if I could of gotten the experience that I did in a diploma program but instead got a BSN I would be on cloud nine! Well, we both know all BSN programs are different.

I just happened to not like the one I was in. You know what the best part of the program was? I'm not kidding either. Nathan Lane's brother Daniel was my English Professor! He was as funny as his brother is! We were supposed to meet Nathan like a lot of the students have done but he was doing one of the voices for The Lion King so he couldn't make it. Daniel and I got a long very well, he was fun to talk to or even argue with! In the end we always found humor in our discussions!

So I mentioned earlier what classes I have taken on a thread I wrote earlier today. Well, I wrote where you can see it. Now, I'm just trying to figure out where's the best place to finish my BSN. If they aren't going to take all my credits then I won't go to that program. Because if I had to take Statistics etc., over just shoot me!

Maybe an on-line program would be good. They are ridiculously expensive. So I'll have to see what happens. I'm leaving for Europe the end of May, so I'm not really looking a lot right now.

I would love to know what kind of program you went to. Did you like the theory used and what was it? I would have to take my books out to explain the one I didn't like. I know I would mess it all up if I were to try and explain it!

Also how did you think it helped you as a person and nurse? I'm happy you feel that way but I did not.

I agree we need ALL the Nurses. In NJ where I am, I don't know where you are from but the nursing shortage is REALLY starting to show. It's getting scary. So if they mandate a BSN to become a Nurse I am worried b/c some people just want to get in it as fast as possible and work where there is tuition reimbursement to further their education.

Susan9608 · Apr 30, 2008

geriatric, MD/DD, poor/homeless, immigrants/cultural)

My BSN program did have a specific class on geriatrics and a specific class on community and culture, where we addressed immigration and cultural nursing.

My BSN program also had significantly more clinical hours than the ADN programs in my area.

I don't understand all of this negatively towards BSN programs. From the tone here, why don't we just eliminate BSNs all together and force all of the BSN nurses to give up their Bachelor's degrees and go back and get their associates? Perhaps then, all these poorly prepared BSN nurses would get some respect for their education. sheesh.

pantheon · Apr 30, 2008

My BSN program did have a specific class on geriatrics and a specific class on community and culture, where we addressed immigration and cultural nursing.
My BSN program also had significantly more clinical hours than the ADN programs in my area.
I don't understand all of this negatively towards BSN programs. From the tone here, why don't we just eliminate BSNs all together and force all of the BSN nurses to give up their Bachelor's degrees and go back and get their associates? Perhaps then, all these poorly prepared BSN nurses would get some respect for their education. sheesh.

Susan9608, Take a deep breath and try to calm down Girl! There is nothing wrong with a BSN. I haven't read every thread but if you read mine right above what you just wrote I think the first paragraph says how I feel about it.

Listen, I have many friends that went to BSN schools and have great nursing careers but it took them a little longer to catch up to other programs that had more clinical experiences.

When I was in nsg school they recommended obtaining a BSN that's why I took BSN classes along with the diploma schools curriculum. But I got a lot more hospital experience in all the nsg fields than any of my BSN grad friends did. Ask, and I will list them all for you.

Your lucky, your done w/ the BSN part. So now it's up to you if you want to stay there or go further! I wish I was done already but it will happen soon enough.

So what ever you read don't take it personally. You should be proud of yourself!

Elvish, BSN, DNP, RN, NP · Apr 30, 2008

I would love to know what kind of program you went to. Did you like the theory used and what was it? I would have to take my books out to explain the one I didn't like. I know I would mess it all up if I were to try and explain it!
Also how did you think it helped you as a person and nurse? I'm happy you feel that way but I did not.

I went to a traditional 4-yr college (UNC-Chapel Hill) straight out of highschool. I know that's not an option for everybody and I'm not knocking those who don't go. But that was the option I had and I took it.

I did learn a lot of theory and some of it was good, some not so much. The research class we had was BORING. Ditto the nursing hx class (or whatever it was called, can't remember). The leadership/mgmt class was AWESOME. Most of our individual classes had the theory mixed in w/ clinicals & lecture, so it's not like we had a separate class on it.

How did it help me as a nurse? Well, I still refer back to the biochemistry (they let us choose chem or biochem) classes I took to help me explain diseases to patients, esp things like sickle cell anemia & diabetes. But it helps me in a lot.

As a person? The four years I spent in college, living on-campus all four years, were some of the absolute best years of my life. I loved everything about living in a dorm except for the 0300 fire alarm pulls by drunk athletes. I loved being exposed to different cultures and groups of people; I met friends from all over the world there and that background alone helps me tremendously now in my dealings with patients (we have pts from lots of different places). The general classes I took in the first 2 years gave me lots of knowledge I wouldn't have otherwise had.

Maybe I'm waxing sentimental but I am really grateful for what I had the opportunity to get. I'm sure many, if not all, of the things I learned as a person are certainly not unique to a BS in Nursing - I'm just saying that they helped me along the way as I was getting my degree.

I hope this makes sense.

lindarn · Apr 30, 2008

Pharmacy, Physical Therapy and Occupational Therapy were all once Bachelors Programs. They are now Doctorate for PT and Pharmacy, (after going to a Masters degree first), and Masters for Occupational Therapy. Explain how come we don't hear them whining about being asked to obtain a higher level of education? They made a seamless transition to higher education levels for entry into practice. They are all grateful that their education levels were increased. Why? Because it cuts the numbers of applicants to the schools, decreases their numbers, which by the law of supply and demand increases their worth in the workplace. These are their words, not mine.

Why on earth can't nursing do the same thing? Why is it that nursing cannot accept a higher standard? PT and OT make ALOT MORE MONEY THAN NURSES DO!! Does anyone connect the dots? They DEMANDED more money as they increased their education levels. Nurses sit around and wait for hospitals to just give us higher pay for education. And we sit and accept our co-workers fight to pay BSNs the same as ADN and Diploma grads are paid. There is no incentive for a BSN to stay at the bedside, is there? I shake my head in disbelief when I hear the ADNs state that the BSN grads only want to work in management. Has anyone made it worth their while to stay at the bedside? Do you hear PT, OT, pharmacists, say, that they learned nothing of worth in their graduate programs? That all of the extra classes were just "fluff"? Do you hear them say that it was not worth it to earn a higher level of education?

The answers to these questions is a resounding "NO". Perhaps if we made the effort to emulate these professsionals, we would learn what they found worthwhile in their programs, and how they managed to incorporate the knowledge into their everyday practice. Has anyone though that putting in requests to the schools, about what you would like to learn, and what classes/knowledge you think was useful?

Nurses, in turn, have no workplace control, no control over how patient care is delivered, we have no respect from anyone, and we are easily replaced by HS dropouts, because their is so litttle educationally to differentiate RNs from LPN/LVNs, and nurses aides/unlicensed assistive personnel. We all look like HS dropouts compared to the other Health Care professionals.

Put some effort into higher education before you condemn it as useless. JMHO, and my NY $0.02.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN

Spokane, Washington

pantheon · Apr 30, 2008

I went to a traditional 4-yr college (UNC-Chapel Hill) straight out of highschool. I know that's not an option for everybody and I'm not knocking those who don't go. But that was the option I had and I took it.
I did learn a lot of theory and some of it was good, some not so much. The research class we had was BORING. Ditto the nursing hx class (or whatever it was called, can't remember). The leadership/mgmt class was AWESOME. Most of our individual classes had the theory mixed in w/ clinicals & lecture, so it's not like we had a separate class on it.
How did it help me as a nurse? Well, I still refer back to the biochemistry (they let us choose chem or biochem) classes I took to help me explain diseases to patients, esp things like sickle cell anemia & diabetes. But it helps me in a lot.
As a person? The four years I spent in college, living on-campus all four years, were some of the absolute best years of my life. I loved everything about living in a dorm except for the 0300 fire alarm pulls by drunk athletes. I loved being exposed to different cultures and groups of people; I met friends from all over the world there and that background alone helps me tremendously now in my dealings with patients (we have pts from lots of different places). The general classes I took in the first 2 years gave me lots of knowledge I wouldn't have otherwise had.
Maybe I'm waxing sentimental but I am really grateful for what I had the opportunity to get. I'm sure many, if not all, of the things I learned as a person are certainly not unique to a BS in Nursing - I'm just saying that they helped me along the way as I was getting my degree.
I hope this makes sense.

Hello and yes it does make sense!

Thanks for the info. I have to say Anatomy & Physioloigy I & II helped me understand diseases better but CHEM I & II and Mico did not. I know it's different everywhere. These were taken at Montclair State University which was affiliated with my NSG school.

Also I lived in the dorm through out Nursing School even when I wasn't taking nursing courses but instead taking BSN courses. Those are and always will be some of the best years of my life!

Even though my Diploma Hospital based school over 100years old in it's nursing program & the hospital itself, it had a 3 floor dormitory that was very large. Kitchen, Laundry room, Lounges, nothing different from any University except it was attached to the school. You could literally role out of bed and take the stairs or elevator right to your class.

The 3rd floor was for smokers, at the time I was one. But I was a social smoker and that did not last long. But I thought it was cool they had that option. Our house mothers loved us and let us party a lot. Sometimes a couple of them even joined us. Yes, there was always plenty of booze for everyone.

I also like my brother and sister could of chosen to go to a 4 year school but I chose my school because a lot of people recommended it. My sister chose a 4 year (nursing) BSN program at Messiah College but hated it and switched to Human Resources as a major!

I also had people from all over the world come to my school. Some from the Carribean! I thought that was amazing that they knew our school even existed but apparently a lot of people did.

I have to say our schools don't sound that much different. The only difference that I have read is yes, I took nursing research (boring) but it was part of the BSN option.

I don't know maybe I was just lucky to have found my particular Diploma program because I know they all differ just like us as people!

Peace out, Pantheon:typing

jjjoy, LPN · Apr 30, 2008

LindaRN - I always appreciate your input on this topic and you do have many valid points. I don't think the issue is that clear cut though.

Pharmacy, Physical Therapy and Occupational Therapy were all once Bachelors Programs. They are now Doctorate for PT and Pharmacy, (after going to a Masters degree first), and Masters for Occupational Therapy. Explain how come we don't hear them whining about being asked to obtain a higher level of education?

I'll bet there were aspiring students who bemoaned that they'd have to go to school longer to end up at the same place that previous students could get to with less schooling.

They made a seamless transition to higher education levels for entry into practice. They are all grateful that their education levels were increased. Why? Because it cuts the numbers of applicants to the schools, decreases their numbers, which by the law of supply and demand increases their worth in the workplace. These are their words, not mine.

I'd be curious to see how the increase in educational level pans out in the long run, especially for PTs and OTs which used to be just bachelor's level for entry to practice. I imagine that as doctoral level PTs demand higher salaries, that more and more hands on and basic level work will be delegated to lower level staff such that the job role of the doctorally prepared PT changes substantially from the job role of the previously bachelor's prepared PT. That trained PT assistants will end up doing what used to be the work of PTs. And that these assistants, with their experience and expertise, may start to clamour for more opportunities and the cycle will continue.

For OTs, which has never demanded as high of a salary as PT in general, I imagine it being difficult to get and keep students & graduates in the field because after all that investment in education, the financial payoff and professional opportunities may be disappointingly limited. Look at social workers. Professional social work requires a master's degree but doesn't tend to pay well in addition to often having frustrating work environments. Much social work is done by non-degreed workers because even the relatively low pay that MSWs demand is more than they have budgets for.

Another difference between nursing and professions like PT & pharmacy is that nurses tend to be 'jack of all trades and master of none' - no RTs available? Have the nurse do it. No PT available? Have the nurse do it. Yet the nurse rarely gets the final say in patient care because they have no clear area of their own. I don't know if there's a way around this inherent dilemma. In attempting to create a 'unique' nursing expertise with nursing diagnoses and nursing care plans (as opposed to a general patient care plan), the nurse's important role in working with physicians and the patient's medical diagnoses becomes diminished.

I also think nursing's emphasis on caring and patient advocacy and basic care (ADLs, hygiene, etc) is a hindrance to nursing's bargaining power in organizations. Basic care can (and is) done primarily by aides in many facilities, and if you're going to cut something from the budget, "caring" and "advocacy" will go long before "medication administration" "patient monitoring" "IV starting" "physician calling" "record documenting" etc. My thoughts aren't well developed on this, just writing as I'm thinking.

PT and OT make ALOT MORE MONEY THAN NURSES DO!!

When I looked at the US Dept of Labor site, I didn't see that big of a difference compared with RNs. On average, maybe $10,000 more per year for PTs. There may be more opportunity for PTs to earn more by opening their own office, but to really make money, they will have to hire assistants and aides and have them do most of the therapy.

Do you hear PT, OT, pharmacists, say, that they learned nothing of worth in their graduate programs? That all of the extra classes were just "fluff"? Do you hear them say that it was not worth it to earn a higher level of education?

I think part of that is the fault of the BSN programs themselves. The content & curriculum COULD be altered to be more clearly relevant to practicing nurses. Other professions don't complain as much because they don't have as much "fluff" content.

chestrockwell · Apr 30, 2008

Pharmacy, Physical Therapy and Occupational Therapy were all once Bachelors Programs. They are now Doctorate for PT and Pharmacy, (after going to a Masters degree first), and Masters for Occupational Therapy. Explain how come we don't hear them whining about being asked to obtain a higher level of education? They made a seamless transition to higher education levels for entry into practice. They are all grateful that their education levels were increased. Why? Because it cuts the numbers of applicants to the schools, decreases their numbers, which by the law of supply and demand increases their worth in the workplace. These are their words, not mine.
Why on earth can't nursing do the same thing? Why is it that nursing cannot accept a higher standard? PT and OT make ALOT MORE MONEY THAN NURSES DO!! Does anyone connect the dots? They DEMANDED more money as they increased their education levels. Nurses sit around and wait for hospitals to just give us higher pay for education. And we sit and accept our co-workers fight to pay BSNs the same as ADN and Diploma grads are paid. There is no incentive for a BSN to stay at the bedside, is there? I shake my head in disbelief when I hear the ADNs state that the BSN grads only want to work in management. Has anyone made it worth their while to stay at the bedside? Do you hear PT, OT, pharmacists, say, that they learned nothing of worth in their graduate programs? That all of the extra classes were just "fluff"? Do you hear them say that it was not worth it to earn a higher level of education?
The answers to these questions is a resounding "NO". Perhaps if we made the effort to emulate these professsionals, we would learn what they found worthwhile in their programs, and how they managed to incorporate the knowledge into their everyday practice. Has anyone though that putting in requests to the schools, about what you would like to learn, and what classes/knowledge you think was useful?
Nurses, in turn, have no workplace control, no control over how patient care is delivered, we have no respect from anyone, and we are easily replaced by HS dropouts, because their is so litttle educationally to differentiate RNs from LPN/LVNs, and nurses aides/unlicensed assistive personnel. We all look like HS dropouts compared to the other Health Care professionals.
Put some effort into higher education before you condemn it as useless. JMHO, and my NY $0.02.
Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
Spokane, Washington

Do you think that OT's and PT's and pharmacists have a lot of work place control? You make it seem like they get all the respect in the world and that nurses get none. I don't know anyone that says " wow, look at that OT, I really respect and envy that position". They do their job and you should do yours and stop comparing yourself to other careers. If I follow your train of thought, why not just make a masters the entry level degree to be a RN? Why settle for anything less? And to call yourself a step above a high school drop out displays your regard for yourself, not the view hundreds of thousands of men and women who work hard at nursing have about themselves.

hpcat · Apr 30, 2008

My BSN program did have a specific class on geriatrics and a specific class on community and culture, where we addressed immigration and cultural nursing.
My BSN program also had significantly more clinical hours than the ADN programs in my area.
I don't understand all of this negatively towards BSN programs. From the tone here, why don't we just eliminate BSNs all together and force all of the BSN nurses to give up their Bachelor's degrees and go back and get their associates? Perhaps then, all these poorly prepared BSN nurses would get some respect for their education. sheesh.

You're lucky, because the schools by me DON'T offer those courses. Also, clinical hours are hard to come by here. The schools fight for slots, and often we have clinical groups that get booted from one hospital to another because they lost the fight for those slots. So some schools by me have RN to BSN programs with clinicals, some don't. But they're both BSNs...

Again, I'm in favor of more education, but remember, not all schools offer practical knowledge, they go for the theoretical stuff which most nurses aren't going to use in everyday practice. It looks more like filler for $ than something to actually enhance your practice.

And my question is, why can't someone like me who already has a BA find a part time program to go straight to BSN without going thru an accelerated program? I can't take a year off for that, I have a mortgage to pay! So I'm getting an ADN part time at night and according to many, my BA in social and behavioral sciences doesn't count for squat, I STILL have to get a BSN, or work for a while, put together a nursing portfolio, and pray I can go straight into an MSN program - fat chance at the school I want to go to. Talk about not getting respect for your education!

:madface:

chestrockwell · Apr 30, 2008

You're lucky, because the schools by me DON'T offer those courses. Also, clinical hours are hard to come by here. The schools fight for slots, and often we have clinical groups that get booted from one hospital to another because they lost the fight for those slots. So some schools by me have RN to BSN programs with clinicals, some don't. But they're both BSNs...
Again, I'm in favor of more education, but remember, not all schools offer practical knowledge, they go for the theoretical stuff which most nurses aren't going to use in everyday practice. It looks more like filler for $ than something to actually enhance your practice.
And my question is, why can't someone like me who already has a BA find a part time program to go straight to BSN without going thru an accelerated program? I can't take a year off for that, I have a mortgage to pay! So I'm getting an ADN part time at night and according to many, my BA in social and behavioral sciences doesn't count for squat, I STILL have to get a BSN, or work for a while, put together a nursing portfolio, and pray I can go straight into an MSN program - fat chance at the school I want to go to. Talk about not getting respect for your education!

That a problem for requiring a BSN. I too have a BA and am going for an ADN because I did not want an Accelerated BSN program. Now why should my previous degree not be of value? Because I didn't take a history of nursing class that will never help me in the real world? The same is to be said of previous lawyers, engineers, and MBA's and their accompanying advanced degree. Those pushing for a BSN need to take a look at all of the different educational accomplishments people have before blindly requiring the BSN degree specifically or risk losing a lot of brilliant people to the profession.