"It is against Immigration and Dept. of Labor laws to pay immigrant nurses at lower rates than comparable American nurses."
Roy, you're missing the point. It isn't that American nurses are working for X, and foreign nurses are working for 1/2X. The point is that the mass importation of foreign nurses depresses EVERYONE'S wages. It's simple supply and demand. By inflating the supply of nurses by importing them, the pay that nurses can command is less than it would otherwise be.
The foreign staff from economically depressed/developing countries are also more likely to put up with staffing situations and a work environment that locals aren't. Not because they are less professional. At home, the staffing situations might be similar or worse and the pay isn't as high. Also, they sign contracts that make it very costly to opt out. The US nurse can just give notice and quit a bad situation. The US nurse is also more likely to be able to find another job with similar pay. The foreign nurse goes back home to a depressed economy, lower wages, and possibly higher workloads.
So in this case, the ability to hire foreign nurses is less about the level of pay but more about the persistence of poor working conditions (low staffing, workloads that demand questionable shortcuts, etc) that discourage US nurses from such jobs.
Roy, you're missing the point. It isn't that American nurses are working for X, and foreign nurses are working for 1/2X. The point is that the mass importation of foreign nurses depresses EVERYONE'S wages. It's simple supply and demand. By inflating the supply of nurses by importing them, the pay that nurses can command is less than it would otherwise be.
No, I'm addressing the issue of "compensation".
Not the eventual depression of wages due to glut in the nursing labor suply market.
Here, I'll highlight the relevent aspects of the posts I quoted:
Nurses beware: This "shortage" will be used as more and more justification to import ever more nurses from third-world countries who will work for a fraction of what our domestic nurses will.
The fact that they're brought in to work for less compensation has a depressive effect on wages
"who will work for a fraction", "to work for less compensation"... etc.
Does this sound like an argument stating the "eventual depression of wages due to over supply" or an argument stating "hospitals like hiring immigrants because they are cheaper than residents" ?
Poster is arguing the point that wages paid to immigrant nurses are already "depressed" or 'lower than average' and that doing this serves to further the depression of nursing wages across the board.
Not the other way around.
All I am saying is "that's not true. Labor and immigration law says that's illegal".
The foreign staff from economically depressed/developing countries are also more likely to put up with staffing situations and a work environment that locals aren't. Not because they are less professional. At home, the staffing situations might be similar or worse and the pay isn't as high. Also, they sign contracts that make it very costly to opt out. The US nurse can just give notice and quit a bad situation. The US nurse is also more likely to be able to find another job with similar pay. The foreign nurse goes back home to a depressed economy, lower wages, and possibly higher workloads.
So in this case, the ability to hire foreign nurses is less about the level of pay but more about the persistence of poor working conditions (low staffing, workloads that demand questionable shortcuts, etc) that discourage US nurses from such jobs
Your theory makes perfect sense if the influx of foreign nurses were limited to those coming from the Third World.
But we have plenty coming from first world nations. What about them?
You could be right, though. Just trying to throw some food for thought.
Notice which hospitals foreign staff from first world countries work at and which hospitals are predominantly staffed by foreign staff from developing countries. It's not usually an even mix. There's a pretty clear distinction where I am.
I can't argue that foreign staff keeps wages artificially low. While I agree that nurses DESERVE to be well-paid, I doubt any of us would actually want to PAY for more for our health care. Substantially higher nurse pay means higher inpatient costs and LTC costs, health insurance premiums would continue to go up and coverage would go down, more health facilities would close. I'm not sure what direction would be best given so many variables.
I agree with you. I don't think there is really a shortage of nurses. Nurses graduate and find out that working in a hospital setting with high nurse patient ratios and stressfrom doctors is not worth the money they are getting paid. In turn they either go into another field or find a job that is less stressful such as a doctor's office. To help this program hospitals should have a set patient ratio, incentives for staying, and higher pay rates.
Hospitals are not revenue neutral. Budgets are set 1 to 3 years in advance. Salaries were removed from the manager role in order to control costs - across the entire organization. Nursing pays what nursing pays. If a unit can staff with an $18.00/hr versus a $28.00/hr they will hire the 18 every time. It is supply and demand - If you are a $28.00 nurse and there are no $18.00 nurses around, or predicted, you will have an easier time, but they will negotiate you down if they have any other options. Also, you should be wary of any facility that will take you off the street and pay your asking price - you are either not asking enough, or there is a problem in the facility. Now, if you are recruited that is another story. If you are bringing a skill that cannot be met locally, that is another story. All and all it is a supply and demand equation. Think about it - have you ever worked as a staff nurse, with not enough staff and someone instantly solved your problem? Or did you "make do" until the right "fit" was found.
I agree with you. I don't think there is really a shortage of nurses. Nurses graduate and find out that working in a hospital setting with high nurse patient ratios and stressfrom doctors is not worth the money they are getting paid. In turn they either go into another field or find a job that is less stressful such as a doctor's office. To help this program hospitals should have a set patient ratio, incentives for staying, and higher pay rates.
I went to the doctor last week and did not recognize the nurse who took my vital signs. She said that she was new. I asked her where she had worked before, and she told me that she just graduated from the community college in June.
I was surprised. I asked her if she didn't want to work in a hospital, at least for a year to get experience. She replied that amost a quarter of her graduating class did not take jobs in a hospital. She said that they had seen it all while they were in clinical, and had no desire to put up with the stress and short staffing.
Another reason for the "nursing shortage". We can't even entice new grads to START A JOB IN A HOSPITAL, EVEN FOR A SHORT TIME, let alone that they leave with in two years after graduation when they do!
I can only assume that the new grads, at least for now, have no interest in going into a grad program where/when hospital experience in needed.
"It is against Immigration and Dept. of Labor laws to pay immigrant nurses at lower rates than comparable American nurses."
Roy, you're missing the point. It isn't that American nurses are working for X, and foreign nurses are working for 1/2X. The point is that the mass importation of foreign nurses depresses EVERYONE'S wages. It's simple supply and demand. By inflating the supply of nurses by importing them, the pay that nurses can command is less than it would otherwise be.
Sorry, but Roy is not missing the point here. We no longer have the H1-B visas for nurses available. When they were, that was the case, but it is illegal to do that with the green card as far as salary. Sure, you may see some unscrupulous agency taking a bigger cut of their pay and minimum that we see is about $10,000 per year for the agency services on average. But what the facility actually pays for them is not 1/2 of what the others are getting in the same place. They cannot do that. Against federal as well as state as well as immigration law.
And there is no mass importation of foreign nurses, there are visa limits as to how many can come to the US. There have not been any visas available for nurses from any country since last October 31. We are only seeing a trickle come thru now that are from recapped visas. There are also quite a few "foreign-trained" nurses from the UK, Canada, and Australia; as well as the rest of Europe. Definitely not from third world countries. And the countries that have the larger number of applicants than the number of visas for nurses from that country, will remain under the retrogression more than likely.
In order to get a green card to work in the US, the nurse must pass a nursing licensure exam, as well as pass the series of English exams and possess a Visa Screen Certificate. No one can decide that they wish to work in the US, and then be here the following month and doing so. You may here of some, but they are working illegally and have not gone thru the proper channels.
Only exception to this are the nurses from Canada and Mexico that work in the US with the TN Visa. As long as they have a Visa Screen Certificate and the job offer, they can get a TN Visa at the border without any waiting. But this is the only exception. All others must go thru a lengthy process to be able to work in the US.
And as mentioned above, please take the time to read some of the threads on the International Forum. It is not as easy, nor as fast as many of you think for an international nurse to work in the US.
the nation is facing an impending shortage of nurses, which is expected to peak by 2020; here are some of the prime indicators:
according to projections released in february 2004 from the bureau of labor statistics, rns top the list of the 10 occupations with the largest projected job growth in the years 2002-2012. although rns have listed among the top 10 growth occupations in the past, this is the first time in recent history that rns have ranked first. these 10-year projections are widely used in career guidance, in planning education and training programs and in studying long-range employment trends. according to the bls report, more than 2.9 million rns will be employed in the year 2012, up 623,000 from the nearly 2.3 million rns employed in 2002. however, the total job openings, which include both job growth and the net replacement of nurses, will be more than 1.1 million. this growth, coupled with current trends of nurses retiring or leaving the profession and fewer new nurses, could lead to a shortage of more than one million nurses by the end of this decade. (for details, see www.bls.gov/emp/#outlook.)
a 21 percent increase in the need for nurses is projected nationwide from 1998 to 2008, compared with a 14 percent increase for other occupations. (u.s. department of labor)
the nursing population is aging rapidly.
nursing shortage contributing factors:
nurses increasingly are facing deteriorating working conditions at the facilities in which they work. this problem is reflected in the decline in nurse staffing nationwide.
nurses also are reporting increasing burnout and widespread job dissatisfaction.
nursing school enrollments are increasing but applicants are also being turned away: the cause is a continuing critical shortage of nursing school faculty
nursing shortage legislation and strategies:
congress has introduced bills and other initiatives to alleviate the shortage, including:
safe nursing and patient care act of 2005 (s. 351 and h.r. 791) - companion legislation introduced in the u.s. senate and house of representatives that would strictly limit the practice of forcing nurses to work overtime.
formation of the congressional nursing caucus - a bi-partisan initiative, co-chaired by u.s. reps. lois capps (d-ca) and steven latourette (r-oh). the purpose of the caucus is to educate congress on all aspects of the nursing profession and how nursing issues impact the delivery of safe, quality care. the caucus was formed after consultation between congressional leaders and ana.
Lordy, I do love this website. I searched for "nursing shortage" and all kinds of posts came up, many answering my questions.
But here's my essential nagging worry. I am doing my prereqs and then will apply to nursing school, probably in Fall 2008 for Fall 2009 start. I already have a BA, but I'm probably not going to do an accelerated program, just a regular 2-year upper-level BSN. (All plans subject to change, LOL)
I know that the nursing schools around here (Philly area) have long waiting lists and have gotten really picky about who they let in. I know there's a chance I won't even be accepted. I know that that situation is due *in part* to a shortage of nurse educators, but from what I've read, applications to nursing schools have gone way up in the last few years, especially in the accelerated programs. It seems lots of people have heard about the "nursing shortage", took a look at the decent salary a nurse can make, and decided to become a nurse.
Since I'm looking 4 years down the road to my BSN, this makes me kind of nervous. Will there be a flood of nursing graduates by then? I wonder if my age (49 now) will lock me out of a market filled with younger grads hungry for their first nursing job.
I hear distinct echoes of the so-called "teacher shortage" of 10 years ago. That's all we heard about, how there weren't enough teachers, blah, blah. Enrollment soared at teacher colleges and guess what? In these parts, there are now 200 to 300 applicants for every teaching job! I guess lots of those with teaching degrees are now thinking about nursing. :)
So here's my question:
Is there really a "nursing shortage" NOW? If so, is it geographically confined to say, the West? Is it institutionally confined to hospitals because nurses don't want to work under frustrating hospital conditions? Do you think there will still be a "nursing shortage" in 5 years, or will hospitals have turned over more and more direct patient care to lower-paid LPNs, CNAs, and other aides, hiring just enough RNs to do what is required by law.
Also, has anyone seen projections for the number of nursing school graduates, based on enrollment now or in the past 2 years?
Gut feelings are fine here. :) I'm just looking for opinions/ideas from those of who you have been in the field.
I don't have answers for you LoriS but you do seem to have a good grasp of the nuances of "shortage" as well as some of the major issues facing nursing.
If you want to be a nurse, you will find a way to make it work. If you're the type who sets their mind to something and makes it happen regardless of the obstacles, you'll be fine. If you're looking for satisfying work with a decent wage but aren't committed to clinical nursing, you may find yourself looking elsewhere depending on the local job market, your other skills and your pay requirements.
May I ask what you're currently working in and what differences you hope to find in nursing? Have you been able to shadow a few nurses? Interview working nurses? Volunteer on a hospital unit? Such actions might give you more clarity in whether or not you want to be a nurse regardless of what exactly the job market will be in the future.
I am currently a mental health therapist working inside a doctor's office where there are many chronic pain patients. I love working with these patients, but I have been attracted to the medical side of chronic pain/chronic illness for a long time. I have intense curiosity about medical issues, and I'm one of those nuts :) who photocopy medical journal articles and put them "FYI" in the doctor's and the NPs' mailboxes. Luckily, they appreciate me and don't think of me as a pest! LOL I find myself always wishing I were more directly involved in the patients' medical care, because I think I could be of even more help to them there than I am on the mental health side.
My view of nurses is a little skewed, because I observe 3 NPs close-up, on a daily basis. (I also work with an RN there, so I do see an RN working, but not in a hospital setting.) I admire the NPs so much; they are a smart, ultra-caring bunch of people. And yes, they do have a lot of autonomy that I realize RNs don't have.
I have not shadowed a nurse otherwise -- where does one get the opportunity to do that? Do hospitals allow that?
I happened to go out after work today with the 3 NPs, and I told them what I've been thinking about. Each of them told me I would be crazy *not* to go to nursing school, and they all felt I have many important skills for nursing: curiosity about and interest in medicine and science, attention to detail, really good people skills (you develop them working in the mental health field, LOL), a genuine desire to help people, etc. So I felt good about that. They also told me that regardless of "shortage" or not, if I want to make this thing work, it will work. They also told me that they felt nursing offers enormous flexibility in career paths, in choosing when/where to work, etc.
So while I am still worried about the possibility of a surplus of nurses, I feel a lot better about the whole decision.
fins
161 Posts
"It is against Immigration and Dept. of Labor laws to pay immigrant nurses at lower rates than comparable American nurses."
Roy, you're missing the point. It isn't that American nurses are working for X, and foreign nurses are working for 1/2X. The point is that the mass importation of foreign nurses depresses EVERYONE'S wages. It's simple supply and demand. By inflating the supply of nurses by importing them, the pay that nurses can command is less than it would otherwise be.