Is this insubordination? How do I deal with this PSW?

Nurses General Nursing

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I need advice on how to deal with a certain PSWs behavior. I've been following the advice of my director and the behavior is improving but it's not stopping. I'm also not sure if the following situations count as insubordination or just disrespectful behavior that I'm not handling properly. Some background:

I am an RN and I am in charge of my shift at an extended care facility. One PSW (has never attended nursing school, only a 1 year college program for PSW certificate) has been very difficult since I started. She will question and verbally pick apart nursing assessments, interventions, and processes. She will also question doctor's orders (example, asking why a resident is suddenly on oxygen via NC and we'll say that the doctor ordered it as the resident has a low O2 sat related to a current pneumonia. She'll say that the doctor is wrong, and the person "is obviously asthmatic and needs a "blue or orange puffer", not oxygen". We'll tell her that no, the x-ray and radiologist report confirmed pneumonia, and nurse's/respiratory therapist/doctor's assessments are correct and the resident needs oxygen).

She'll also question every little thing you do. Many times a shift, I find myself saying to her, "You don't need to know how I calculated and drew up the morphine dose/inserted a SUBQ butterfly/debrided a wound/flushed a chest port because you will not be doing any of those tasks." She usually follows my response with, "I was only asking because I was curious and I wanted to be sure you were doing it right" or, "I do so need to know how you did that so I can train on it, do it, and tell you if you did it right." I tell her that the task was completed correctly, that it is never her job to be doing such tasks, and that training or not, she is not qualified to carry out the task or evaluate nurses on the task. I tell she has been told this many times, by myself, other nurses, and the director, and that she has been asked to stop questioning things unnecessarily. She then claims I am bullying or harassing her and puts in a complaint to HR (which is not found to be harassment or bullying).

The director has talked with her about her comments and behavior and asked her to stop. The PSW is improving slightly by not questioning quite as much, but it's still happening multiple times each shift and I'm getting tired of reminding her to stay within her scope and remember her role.

Questions remains:

Would the previous scenarios (questioning doctor's orders, questioning my competency or saying "I do so need to know how you did that so I can train on it and tell you if you did it right") count as insubordination? What would you call those scenarios if they aren't insubordination?

How do I identify insubordination and how do I handle it? I always thought it was refusing to do a task, not questioning your superiors.

How should I handle her questions/comments?

Should I be reporting every incidence of her comments/disrespectful behavior? I feel like this is overkill and tattling. My director has said to just ask her to stop questioning things and to keep reiterating that the task is correctly completed, it is beyond the PSWs scope to do such a task, and that the PSW is not qualified to do or evaluate such a task.

What else should I be doing?

3 hours ago, Jory said:

I would take her aside the next time she does it and tell her nicely and firmly, "This is the last time I am going to remind you to stop trying to practice nursing without a license. The director has already spoken with you, I am doing you a favor by addressing this with you one-on-one. If this doesn't stop now I am going to start reporting it every time."

I think a bigger problem is what is she telling patients and families when an RN isn't around????? If she's that bold in front of you, imagine what she says when she's with residents/families alone.

I don't even want to think about it, but of course, I do. To my knowledge, no families have come forward with issues from her. I think it's more the fact that this PSW wants to be "one of the nurses", but I've never caught her giving health advice to a patient or talking to family about anything she brings up with me. It doesn't mean she hasn't, but most families would come forward and talk to the nurse in charge if a PSW had told them about some concerns with their family members care.

2 hours ago, Sour Lemon said:

I'd think I'd ask her to her write her "important" questions down so they could be reviewed and answered on an *as needed* basis. Every time she started talking, I'd just cut her off with, "Write it down, please!" Maybe I'd even hand her a pen. I'm so annoyed just reading about this.

I will try this! This way, I could actually get in writing many of her concerns and pass them along to the director and say, "This is what PSW came to me with this shift. This is what I did about it. This was her response. How would you like to proceed?"

2 hours ago, Persephone Paige said:

Meee too!

Great idea about the writing it down. Once everything has been answered, ask for a copy and whip it out. "I refer you you bullet point #4." Or tape it to your back!

I thought so too. I'll even include it in my daily report. Write as you go!

2 hours ago, brownbook said:

I love the write it down response. I also love to read Miss Manners and often think what she might say. One of her oft repeated replies to inappropriate questions is, “I will forgive you asking me that question if you will forgive me not answering”, then just go about your job.

I can’t believe there are so few PSW’s looking for work that the director thinks she cannot simply let this PSW go.

We have tried hiring new PSWs, but they keep quitting on us. Its very difficult to keep PSWs at our facility. We hire about one or two PSWs every month, but I'd say by the end of the year, we've only retained one new PSW from that year. Most of the PSWs at our facility have been there for 5 years or more. It's not so much filling her job that's the problem, it's retaining her as a PSW. She knows the routines, the clients, and does her job safely and adequately (besides the constant questioning). Someone would jump into her position eagerly, but it would have to be a new hire as all the other working PSWs are in the position they want. We're still trying to find someone to fill a full time position, and after a year, we haven't had anyone stay on permanently.

2 hours ago, TriciaJ said:

First of all, stop telling her you did the task correctly. You don't answer to her. You need to report to the manager that this is still a problem and the employee needs to be given a specific work plan, with a section for daily evaluation by you.

From now on, each time she questions you inappropriately, it goes on her work plan. If she ever goes to nursing school she will then learn the correct way of doing things. Meanwhile, it is not her place to evaluate the work of her superiors. Stop engaging in this nonsense; just put it on the work plan.

It's true, I don't answer to her! I thought I was offering reassurance when I was saying, "It was done correctly", but I can see now that by doing that, I'm letting her believe that she is owed the answer. I will stop doing that! I don't owe her anything. I think I like some of the other posts with suggestions on how to answer her constant pestering questions, so I'll respond with those when I need to.

A workplan sounds like a good idea. Up until now, we have been referring her to a printed document outlining her duties, and the director has told this PSW that the things she cannot do are too numerous to put in that document; assume that if it's not in your duties that it is not your duty. Perhaps we need to create a work plan and create specific goals such as, "Will not question superiors competency. If competency is in question, employee will report to the director." I think getting the director involved will help her to understand just how many times a day this PSW is questioning our competencies or questioning us inappropriately.

1 hour ago, Jb92 said:

I don't even want to think about it, but of course, I do. To my knowledge, no families have come forward with issues from her. I think it's more the fact that this PSW wants to be "one of the nurses", but I've never caught her giving health advice to a patient or talking to family about anything she brings up with me. It doesn't mean she hasn't, but most families would come forward and talk to the nurse in charge if a PSW had told them about some concerns with their family members care.

The reason no families have come forward is because if someone starts giving medical advice and acts like they know what they are doing, they are going to assume they are a nurse.

This happened in an office I worked at years ago where the secretary would try to read the charts and get it wrong. After a few bizarre misunderstandings we figured out the secretary was trying to answer their questions. She was written up after a review of phone records showed she wasn't transferring the incoming calls to the nurses in more than a few occasions.

Specializes in school nurse.
9 hours ago, Sour Lemon said:

I'd think I'd ask her to her write her "important" questions down so they could be reviewed and answered on an *as needed* basis. Every time she started talking, I'd just cut her off with, "Write it down, please!" Maybe I'd even hand her a pen. I'm so annoyed just reading about this.

That would be great as it could also serve as a de facto record of the level of her insubordination- written by HER as a bonus. Score!!

Specializes in school nurse.

Oh, by the way, what is a PSW??

She has already been directed by management. Give no answer, just give her "the hand". I would continue to keep a weekly tally of these questions, and push the manager to act. It is not insubordination but it is INTERFERING with your job duties.

That should be enough to get her out.

Good luck with this mess.

Specializes in Psych (25 years), Medical (15 years).

You're dealing with someone who has all he earmarks of a personality disorder, jb92.

TriciaJ said it- do your job and ignore her when anything is outside of the realms of her business.

Nothing you do will change her behavior for very long. Stay focused and consistent.

Another bad thing about personality disorders is that even medicinal therapy doesn't help.

Jednurse- I just thought PSW stood for some kind of social worker. A lot of social workers seem to be know-it-alls.

Oops! I didn't say that!

Specializes in EMS, ED, Trauma, CEN, CPEN, TCRN.
3 hours ago, Jedrnurse said:

Oh, by the way, what is a PSW??

I think it's a personal support worker. This one sounds like a real peach, if a peach were dangerous to patients. Haha.

Mark my words. The PSW is going to hang herself by performing a nursing procedure in the near future. That should take care of the problem.

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