Intravenous meds and medical assistants

Sekar · Oct 24, 2003

Originally posted by Brownms46
And if having a license and a degree was a rational for giving medicaitons, then why are there nurses out there, committing the dumbiest medication errors??? Having a license didn't protect the pts they were caring for..!

As I stated earier, licensure doesn't eliminate errors. I don't recall anyone here saying that it would. We're dealing with humans here, errors are always inherent where humans are involved. Education and licensure does set a minimum standard that helps keep the error rate down. The standard has to be set somewhere or else why have standards at all? Licensure is the standard and should not be lowered. If we follow your logic, then it doesn't matter if physicians are licensed since so many of them still make errors. Just do it like in the old west and let anyone who wants to hang a shingle outside their door and perfrom surgery. :rolleyes: If CMAs want to pass meds that badly, they can go to nursing school, get the proper education, and pass the licensure examination.

Brownms46 · Oct 24, 2003

They already give meds, as that is what their profession, training, and job description states! They don't need a license to do so, as they function under an MD's license! Which has been legal and has worked well for a very long time!

I would trust those I have worked with, a whole lot more than some nurses I have worked with. But yes I used to think the same way of some of you, until I worked with one, and found out exactly what they're knowledge was, and what they're education consisted of. And believe me the ones I know could give a hoot about being able to give meds, as it doesn't represent a "status" symbol for them!

What I do see here is a round about discussion about them, the same way many RNs have used about LPNS. And the same rationals that BSN have used for why the BSN should be the standard of care. But there are many ADNs who resent that also! But of course that isn't the same thing...right??? Sure it isn't:rolleyes:

fab4fan · Oct 24, 2003

Whatever, Brownie, you're right, we're just a bunch of snobs. Hell, let 'em run codes, too!

Back at ya!

:rolleyes:

Speculating · Oct 24, 2003

Originally posted by aktransplant
As for the earlier question on error rate...if you don't know anything about the medication or what to watch for and as long as you did what was ordered....where is the error??

I know you didn't say that.

Brownms46 · Oct 24, 2003

Originally posted by fab4fan
Whatever, Brownie, you're right, we're just a bunch of snobs. Hell, let 'em run codes, too!

:rotfl: :rotfl: :roll I will let the RN who gave a pt Vecuronium, while he was off the vent in an ICU, run the code:rolleyes: !

Speculating · Oct 24, 2003

Originally posted by Brownms46
They already give meds, as that is what their profession, training, and job description states! They don't need a license to do so, as they function under an MD's license!

Not to dis you but, where on earth did you come up with the idea CMA's work under a Dr.'s license. They work under a chain of command. Even in an MD's office if there is an RN on duty even an LPN those are the licenses they will go after first when a CMA messes up! Certifications are certifications and licenses are licenses. CNA's are certified for that matter so are accountants! :nono:

Brownms46 · Oct 24, 2003

Scope of Practice
Certified Medical Assistants perform delegated clinical and administrative duties within the supervising physician's scope of practice consistent with the CMA's education, training and experience. Such duties shall not constitute the practice of medicine.
Supervision
Physician supervision shall be active and continuous but shall not be construed as necessarily requiring the physical presence of the supervising physician at the time and place that services are rendered.

Now once there was an OJT MA working in the same clinic I was as an agency nurse. Because this person had no experience, or training, there were those of us who were concerned if she was working under our license. So we called the BON, and were told, that the MA was working under the MD's license, as she was assigned to work with him.

In Oregon I worked with a CMA, who was very well educated and trained, working a Family Practice Residency Program, and had for years! She was hired to work under the license of the MD of the program. This became a conflict when management wanted to change the supervision structure, and wanted the CMA to work under the nurses. The supervision structure ended up remaining the same, with the CMA practicing under supervised, and answering to the MD she was assigned to.

And as of

January 1, 2003, all Certified Medical Assistants employed or seeking employment must have current certified status to use the CMA credential in connection with employment.

And the following link shows what they must be taught in order to be a CMA http://www.aama-ntl.org/Website/PDFs/03FinalContentOutline.pdf and they can work with me anytime:D And this requires them to have 60 CEU's every 5yrs, in order to be recertified! 15 of which must be in clinical area! And to work for such places as Group Health, the CMA must maintain their certfication!

Brownms46 · Oct 24, 2003

Originally posted by Speculating
Not to dis you but, where on earth did you come up with the idea CMA's work under a Dr.'s license. They work under a chain of command. Even in an MD's office if there is an RN on duty even an LPN those are the licenses they will go after first when a CMA messes up! Certifications are certifications and licenses are licenses. CNA's are certified for that matter so are accountants!

Comparing accountants, and CNA to CMAs is an afront to their education level. First of all accountants, and CMA have nothing to do with each other, and is comparing apples to chewing gum! Not a bit of similarity! And a CNA at most goes thru approx a 2 month program. A CMA is a much wider scope, and more indepth education level!

Now if you're talking about an OJT or short program MA, than maybe a CNA and a MA are the same, but not a CMA! Please try and understand the difference.

Brownms46 · Oct 24, 2003

Originally posted by Speculating
Certifications are certifications and licenses are licenses. CNA's are certified for that matter so are accountants!

All of the following take an exam, and are licensed as required by the state they practice in;

Real Estate Appraisal

Auditors

Construction Laborers

Claims Adjusters, Examiners, and Investigators Computer Hardware Engineers

Court Reporters

Drywall Installers

And the list goes on, so your point is???

Trishikins · Oct 24, 2003

I can't speak for all schools, but the MA school I went to, we were taught the basic meds that are routinely given in a medical office setting. We were to do 10 med cards a week dealing with everything from medication actions, S/s of a overdose, allergic reaction, treatment...ect ect ect. Then tested on them. When I did my first term for my LVN (which lasted 5 months, and included passing meds, ironically), we did the EXACT same things. Even today, I never give anyone a med I'm not familiar with, without first cosulting my med book. I do it as much for the patient, as I do for me.

I do happen to feel that certification should be required for MA's. Not just for administering meds, but for all aspects. I am the only one at my facility who is, out of 30. Not to say I'm better than them! Far from it. It would just benefit the Medical Assisting profession as a whole if that was standard practice. Help to seperate the good apples from the bad. I'm not saying let the MA's (or CMA's) have free range of the medicine cabinet, but to imply, even with proper training and supervision, we can't work within our scope of practice to do our jobs? I can just see the eyerolling and heavy sighs with every request for an Aspirin to be given. :rolleyes:

Trishikins · Oct 24, 2003

And I'd be happy to finish up my nursing school. Care to pay my rent and make my car payments?

Sekar · Oct 24, 2003

Originally posted by Brownms46
They already give meds, as that is what their profession, training, and job description states! They don't need a license to do so, as they function under an MD's license! Which has been legal and has worked well for a very long time!

I would trust those I have worked with, a whole lot more than some nurses I have worked with. But yes I used to think the same way of some of you, until I worked with one, and found out exactly what they're knowledge was, and what they're education consisted of. And believe me the ones I know could give a hoot about being able to give meds, as it doesn't represent a "status" symbol for them!

What I do see here is a round about discussion about them, the same way many RNs have used about LPNS. And the same rationals that BSN have used for why the BSN should be the standard of care. But there are many ADNs who resent that also! But of course that isn't the same thing...right??? Sure it isn't:rolleyes:

No actually it isn't the same thing at all. The squabbling between LPN/ADN/BSN is the elitism you like to zero in on. The difference is that LPNs are Licensed Nurses, ADN RNs are Licensed Nurses, BSN RNs are are Licenses Nurses, CMAs are NOT Licensed Nurses. Again, as I stated earlier, some states make it legal to dump toxic chemicals into rivers. So since it is legal to do so it must be a good thing, right? :rolleyes:

You are not the only one who works with CMAs, I work with them everyday. They have been trained in different states, over the last 10 years and NONE of them have any pharmacology training whatsoever. But leaglly they can pass under the physician's license. Legal? Yes. Safe? No way. I finally convinced THe Physician how at risk his medical license was with that practice and now only Nurses give medications in our clinic. My concern is not the superiority of Nurses, put patient safety.