Intravenous meds and medical assistants

Mandylpn · Oct 14, 2003

Sorry, but I am an LPN student and our training is 2 & 1/2 years. We have to be a CNA before we can even apply to the program. We are trained to do many things a MA isn't. We can work in a clinic, hospital, LTC, hospice, home care, school nurse, etc. Please, we are not the same. You are trained in lab/x-ray and we are not. :nono:

Mandylpn · Oct 14, 2003

I agree, the "N" is for nurse, and we earn the right to use it.:)

aktransplant · Oct 15, 2003

In this bush one need not have any "formal assistant training" to be a "medical assistant" ...currently require one to be an EMT II around here. Once this certification is obtained our providers not only expect you to start the IV but carry out the administration of any/all IV meds, as ordered- be it a written order or verbal. As for the earlier question on error rate...if you don't know anything about the medication or what to watch for and as long as you did what was ordered....where is the error??

itsme · Oct 15, 2003

the error is having someone that doesnt know anything about the med or what to watch for administer it. It is more serious than giving someone a tylenol for an ache or pain. All drugs have side effects, and can be potentially life threatening to anyone.

aktransplant · Oct 15, 2003

To date I have been unable to stop the insanity....having advocated from the standpoint of patient safety, legality, ethics...

Even the argument of the effects of a potentially life threatening event on the individual who admistered the med has fallen on deaf ears....Even stepping over the line to an administrative secretary who wanted to talk about a recent article in the readers digest regarding med errors and long hours... you know the one where a nurse works a double shift, exahausted,on the way home realizes that she made an error and notified the appropriate people averting a potentially fatal outcome....I was able to reasure her that although we frequently work such long hours, the majority of our staff have no knowledge or training in medication administration so such a realization will probably not happen, thus the staff would not be both exausted and devestated...must admit it did raise her eyebrows temporarily!

Ready to stop the insanity just need some fresh ideas on how to do it.

smk1, LPN · Oct 15, 2003

ideas on how to do it i have one: EDUCATING THE PUBLIC ABOUT WHO IS PERFORMING THEIR HEALTHCARE! i feel really strongly about this as you can probably tell. I firmly believe that when it comes to teaching and explaining medications and administering them that the public wants a NURSE oR DOCTOR to do it. the problem comes in when doctors or administration tries to fool the public into thinking the person doing these things is in fact a nurse when they are anything ranging from cna to cma. there needs to be a clear distinction between these roles in both uniform and name tags that are large and clearly visible.

quest33 · Oct 16, 2003

What nurses need to do.... My background was ICU nursing. I worked in a large teaching hospital. In our hospital, only nurses and physicians were aloud to give intravenous medications. LPNs were aloud to give IM, sub-cutaneous and sub-dermal injections- no intravenous infusions. That was our difference between an infusion and injection. Medical assistant can put in IVs with a heplock. The medical assistants were not aloud to administer any medication including a KVO to the IV that was put in. What nurses need to do is build a stronger lobby and inform the public of the risks of an unlicensed professional. I read a recent study regarding nursing medication errors that investigated the difference between a 4 year degree RN and a 2 year degree RN or diploma nures. The study revealed that the higher educated RN had fewer med errors, showing that experience was less significant then educational level. Now...Do the same study but instead of pitting nurses against nurses you compare Registered nurses to unlicensed professionals. You disseminate this information to the public, build up your lobby in Washington and have a law passed that only RNs and physicians can give intravenous medications. That's basically what nurses need to do. That is how the AMA does it.

Sekar · Oct 16, 2003

Originally posted by Quita
I am a certified medical assistant and I must say we go to school just as long as LPN's ,so why shouldn't we be able to give injections. LPN's and medical assistant's have basically the same duties on their job and get paid about the same thing so why shouldn't we give injections.

CMAs and LPNs don't have even remotely the same training. A LPN is far more extensively trained in A&P, Pharmacology, disease processes, etc...than a CMA. This is not a flame, CMAs have different duties therefore different training. For example, no LPN programs I know of train folks in insurance posting and collecting nor ICD9 coding and CMA programs do offer that training. Furthermore, most LPN programs are longer than CMA programs, although I have heard of some 2 year CMA programs. Having been a LPN, and having worked with CMAs, I can state that the duties of CMA are not nearly as indepth as those of a LPN. The similarities in the jobs are surface ones only. In NC a LPN can clinically supervise a CMA but a CMA cannot clinically supervise a LPN. Why? The education, training, and licensure of the LPN is just plain higher than the education, training, and certification of the CMA. Finally LPNs are NURSES who must pass a comprehensive licensure exam and practice under their own license (depending on the state) and CMAs are unlicensed assistive personnel who practice under the license of a physician. The administration of medications should be limited to those who are trained and licensed to do so. Paramedics (limited), LPNs, RNs, PAs, MDs and that should be it.

Trishikins · Oct 19, 2003

I'm currently working as a CMA, and have been for over 5 years now. Where I currently work, we have alot of do's and don'ts for medication administration (which medications, and route). I get tested yearly, for competencies, in all aspects of all the different departments at our facility. It's a written exam and then skills testing in injections, medication administration, and specimen collection. Its either pass or fail (which means education remediation). I can't speak for all MA's, but I know my stuff. I'm currently enrolled in an LVN course, but due to financial hardships, I will have to drop ;( I was doing some research about IV Therapy courses, which lead me to this site. I read some of the posts, and I know they weren't meant to flame, but frankly I was offended. I have had RN's come to me and ask about medications. I had my supervising LVN, just yesterday, ask me what was a GI cocktail. Having an "N" in your title doesn't always mean you know everything. We all should be able to perform our duties within our scope of practice, and passing certain meds are part of a MA's practice. I'm not arguing that MA's should be able to go out and do the same level of work as licensed personnel, but to say we should just pass gowns out or answer phones?!?! I don't understand this elitist attitude within this profession. Aren't we all out to perform the same things? Patient care and comfort?

fab4fan · Oct 19, 2003

I have a hard time believing that RN's are going to CMA's for answers about meds. The RN's and LPN's in your office should be looking up the info if they don't know it, not asking someone else for the answer.

CMA's should be nowhere near intravenous meds. Unlike SC/IM meds, if you make a mistake with an IV med, you have little time to correct it; depending on the med, this could be disastrous.

Unfortunately, the trend has been toward "de-skilling" tasks, making it possible to replace licensed staff with unlicensed staff. Pts. have the right to know who is providing their care.

To add to the confusion, I have seen first-hand CMA's referring to themselves as " the nurse." Until a CMA goes through the training and gets that license, CMA's who do that are doing so unlawfully.

Brownms46 · Oct 19, 2003

I'm sorry I agree with Trishikins, as I feel as though there have been "some" elitist statements made on this BB about CMAs, even from students!

And YES I have seen and heard with my own eyes and ears, RN's and LPN asking a CMA about meds, immunizations, and procedures! And she knew exactly what she was talking about!

I worked with a very knowledgeable CMA , and I know her knowledge base surpassed some of the RNs and LPNs she worked with! I agree that CMAs shouldn't call themselves nurses, but nurses shouldn't disregard a person's knowledge, just because they don't have a certain license or degree!

And yes a nurse should look up a med, she/he that don't know any about, or aren't sure of, if their going to be giving that med! But that doesn't mean you can't be open to someone else's input either!

fab4fan · Oct 19, 2003

I am not saying CMA's are not worthwhile or knowledgeable, but they should not be perfoming skilled services that require licensure.

A good CMA can be a big part of the glue that holds an office together. I did not mean to imply anything else. Some of the posts sounded like there are CMA's who feel there is no difference between their training and that of a nurse. There is a huge difference.

And I still say it is irresponsible to ask someone else about meds. Look it up!