Intravenous meds and medical assistants

Sekar · Oct 19, 2003

fab4fan, you summed it up nicely there. Licensure is the minimum level that should be required for folks to administer medications. That is not elitism, that is patient safety at work. Nurses have the training, education, call it what you will, to administer medications. We also have the licensure to assure a minimal level of competence and CMAs do not have either the training nor the licensure. That is not flaming, that is fact.

Trishikins, I hope you get the chance to finish your nursing training. When you do, please come back and re-read this thread as a Nurse (LPNs are nurses despite certain eariler postings in this thread that insinuated that LPNs are somehow different than Nurses). No the "N" does not mean you know everything. But it does mean you've met certain minimal educational and licensure standards. It also places a legal responsibility on you that you don't have on you right now. That tends to give one a different outlook on things.

Brownms46 · Oct 19, 2003

Originally posted by fab4fan
I am not saying CMA's are not worthwhile or knowledgeable, but they should not be perfoming skilled services that require licensure.

A good CMA can be a big part of the glue that holds an office together. I did not mean to imply anything else. Some of the posts sounded like there are CMA's who feel there is no difference between their training and that of a nurse. There is a huge difference.

And I still say it is irresponsible to ask someone else about meds. Look it up!

Yes there is a difference, but their basic education is to be trained to give medication. This is their scope of practice, just as it is for a medication aide in some states. They have A&P, pharmaceutical, drug administration education, so they'are trained to give medication, and to educate themselves on medication.

Now I'm the first one to have a problem with the "MA" who are just taken off the street, and given only instructions on how to give an IM injection by the MD. But someone who has been given the educational background to do so, I have no problem with.

And CMAs pass a national exaministration and have their own competencies to maintain. No their not licensed or maybe called a nurse, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't practice what they were taught to do, and that is medication administration.

Heck I have more of a problem with unlicensed, and poorly educated people, who are giving medication in ALS, and other facilities than I do CMAs! Those are the people who are giving medications that really scare me!

Trishikins · Oct 20, 2003

I'm all for restrictions on duties and medications a MA can do. A few years ago, I was working in a private clinic VERY briefly, and I was amazed the freedom we had there. The doctor I worked for wanted me to do things licensed people should do. Like insert a catheter! I knew I couldn't, (wouldn't know where to even begin for that matter), and when I told him, he just scoffed and said his previous nurse didn't have a problem with it. When I continued to refuse, he asked another MA to do it..and she did!!! I quickly left. Though I may not have a license to lose, I would still be held accountable for my actions reguardless. I don't need a license to realize the dangers in allowing improperly trained staff give certain meds, but ALL meds? If I were to go to my LVN and ask her to give a patient Tylenol, she'd laugh in my face, and most likely, I'd be reported to my Administrator for not performing my basic duties.

Brownms46 · Oct 20, 2003

Trishikins, let me ask you what is your training? Are you a CMA?

sassyr · Oct 20, 2003

There are good and bad in every profession. But do you think the reason so many docs are hiring MA's is the $$ thing? A RN at our local hospital said that the MA's are taking the place of LPN's in docs offices. Is this LEGAL?? Not to have a licensed personnel there??

gwenith, BSN, RN · Oct 20, 2003

I will go back to my stance - knowing what to do and why you are doing it are two vastly different beasts.

Anyone can be taught the 6 R's of administration - otherwise we would never give anyone meds to take home (oops! that reminds me I should........lol) Anyone can be taught how to administer an injection - there are plenty of people who give themselves injections. BUT it takes someone with both the skill and the knowledge to be able to evaluate the effect of the medication and to ensure infection control standards are observed or to titrate a dose or even just to ensure that no adverse outcomes occur.

Brownms46 · Oct 20, 2003

Originally posted by sassyr
There are good and bad in every profession. But do you think the reason so many docs are hiring MA's is the $$ thing? A RN at our local hospital said that the MA's are taking the place of LPN's in docs offices. Is this LEGAL?? Not to have a licensed personnel there??

It's legal now and always has been. Doctors didn't just start using MAs! They have been using them for years! My doctor's office whose wife was my peds doc, and he was my GP, had MA's in his office when I was a child!

Please find out about a CMAs education, and what the history of the profession is, before putting them down.:) Their education goes much further than just being shown what to do.

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Program Description:
Medical Assisting is a 5 quarter diploma program that trains the student for administrative and clinical duties, primarily in physicians' offices or clinics. Clinical skills include taking vital signs, obtaining medical histories, performing basic lab tests, sterilizing instruments, administering medications and assisting the physician.
Administrative skills include answering phones, scheduling appointments, transcription, filing medical and insurance reports, arranging for hospital admissions and laboratory services. The Medical Assisting program is accredited by the Commission on Accreditation of Allied Health Education Programs (CAAHEP) Curriculum Review Board of American Association of Medical Assistants.
Length of Program: Five (5) Quarters
Entrance Date: General core Courses - Open. Prerequisites must be completed prior to beginning technical course winter quarter
Entrance Requirements:
Age: Students applying for this course must be 17 years of age or older.
Education: A high school diploma or its equivalent is required. Recommended high school courses include: typing, Health Occupations, and other related courses.
Health: An applicant must be able to attend school regularly and meet the physical demands of this course.
Assessment Results: Applicants must make the minimum required scores in reading, writing and math on the Admission Placement Test (ASSET) or one of the approved entrance tests (SAT or ACT) to be admitted as regular students. Generally, students are not admitted to Allied Health Education programs on a provisional basis. Acceptable math and English courses may be used in lieu of an entrance exam. All prerequisites must be taken with a cumulative GPA of 2.0.
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1. General Core Courses 15
ENG 101 English 5
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AHS 101* Anatomy and Physiology 5
AHS 104 Introduction to Health Care 3
AHS 109* Medical Terminology for Allied Health Sciences 3
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BUS 101* Beginning Document Processing 5
MAS 101 Legal Aspects of the Medical Office 2
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MAS 114 Medical Administrative Procedures I 3
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MAS 108 Medical Assisting Skills I 5
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MAS 118 Medical Assisting Seminar 4
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Medical Assisstant, eligible to sit for national certification exam to become a Certified Medical Assistant (CMA)

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GSCI1001
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3
GSCM1102
Applied Written Communications
2
GSWS1471
CPR for health Care Providers
1
MEDA1010
Anatomy and Physiology I
3
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Disease Conditions
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Medical Terminology
3
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3
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3
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2
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Pharmacology
3
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Externship
4
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Hematology
3
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History and the Social and Behavioral Sciences
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of the goal areas.
Total General Education Credits
20
Total Program Credits: 72

**SKM-NURSIEPOOH, BSN, RN** · Oct 22, 2003

originally posted by sekar
medical assistants should not be allowed to handle medications of any sort in any environment. the handling of medications should be only be done by licensed personnel period. i don't care if they get "pharmacology training", the principles of medication administration, or a secret decoder ring. the administration of medications is risky and should only be done by those trained and licensed to administer them. certain states may allow unlicensed assistive personnel to administer meds, but then certain states also allow the dumping of toxic chemicals into rivers. neither practice is reasonable, logical, or even remotely safe. medication errors cannot be completely eliminated but making licensure the minimum standard for administering medications, the errors can be kept to a minimum.

...i don't care if they get "pharmacology training", the principles of medication administration, or a secret decoder ring. the administration of medications is risky and should only be done by those trained and licensed to administer them....

worth repeating again & again~cheers!

moe

Brownms46 · Oct 23, 2003

What you want and what is reality is two different things! There are RN and other who don't feel that LPN should do a whole lot of things, but thank God they don't haven't got their wishes either:rolleyes:!

A license doesn't mean dang thing if the person can't transfer the knowledge they have to practical situations in real life, and too many with license fail to do just that! A license is only as good as they person who has it!

If everyone with a license was competent, there wouldn't be as many nurses being disciplined and restricted by the boards of nursing:rolleyes:! Elitism suks!

fab4fan · Oct 24, 2003

A lot of docs hire people who have not gone through that training and give them OJT and call them medical assistants.

And the coursework is fine, but I agree that knowing why you are doing something is just as important, if not more so, than how to do it.

It's not elitism, it's patient advocacy, and I'm sorry you can't see that.

Brownms46 · Oct 24, 2003

I can see there is a different between a MA and a CMA, which somehow has failed to get thru the {the only if you're licensed crowd)!

And the CMAs I have worked with do know the rational why they're doing it, as their education background should say to those who bother to check it out!

But the same agruements have been used as to why LPNs shouldn't do IV or draw blood! And in some hospitals even pass meds! So NO I don't see it, but what I do see is the ability of some to ignore the education that CMAs have. Or the fact that at least they have to be re-certified, with up to 60 CEUs Q5yrs, but nurses continue to take care of pts in too many states, without updating their knowledge at all!

Brownms46 · Oct 24, 2003

And if having a license and a degree was a rational for giving medications, then why are there nurses out there, committing the dumbiest medication errors??? Having a license didn't protect the pts they were caring for.. :rolleyes: !