I don't think I understand pain management.

Nurses General Nursing

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It is drilled into our heads during class time that there is no reason for a person to have severe pain. We are to assess and reassess how pain meds are working and make sure that we get the pain level down to an acceptable/ manageable number. I've experienced at least 2 times in the last couple of months at clinicals that have confused me because I felt that the patient was undermedicated and the nurse disagreed with me and didn't seek additional pain relief. I'll give the two situations and maybe someone can help me understand the reasoning a little better.

The first lady, Mrs. A, was a terminal cancer patient who had been in the hospital for several weeks, with increasing pain. She refused hospice because she thought that she would get better. The last week of my clinical at that facility, Mrs. A was suffering greatly and asked for pain medication often. When I reported to the nurse that Mrs. A was still in pain even though she had been given all the medication that she could have, the nurse said that there was nothing more we could do for her because she refused hospice. Once she goes to hospice, the nurse said, they could increase her pain meds (she was on morphine and various other pain meds). I asked her why we couldn't manage her pain anyways and she said that there was some kind of limitation on how much morphine that could be given without being on hospice. ??? Could someone please explain this to me. I felt so awful for this poor woman. I don't know what happened to her after I left. I can only imagine that her pain got severe enough that she eventually requested hospice services so that she could get pain relief. :(

The second event happened today during my clinical at a subacute facility. Mrs. B is a post surgery pt. in pain, rating her pain at 7/10, with moaning and fidgeting. I didn't take her bp (someone else had taken it) but I took the rest of her vitals and they were within the normal range. She had had 1 vicodin 2.5 hours earlier and it was clearly not lasting long enough. She only had vicodin ordered-1 or 2 tablets. No tylenol, no nothing else for pain. I let the nurse know this and she said that there was nothing more to do for Mrs. B because she couldn't have more vicodin for another 1.5 hours. I asked her if it might be possible to get an order for something else, even Tylenol, and she said that we would just wait and the next time we would give her two vicodin instead of one. The reasoning was that maybe the vicodin would work longer next time with the higher dose. Ok, my question here is, I understand wanting to give the vicodin a chance, but what would be so bad about addressing the pain she was having that very minute? I felt so helpless. I went back to the patient's room and adjusted her and tried to make her as comfortable as possible. I checked her often and adjusted her as much as she wanted. I talked to my instructor and explained what happened and she pretty much agreed with the nurse that unfortunately, sometimes there is nothing more you can do for a person. :( I guess I'm just really confused. What would have been the harm in picking up the phone and letting the doc know the patient was in pain and needed something more for pain? I don't want to act like I don't trust my instructor's or the nurse's judgement. They know a great deal more than I do, so could someone please explain this to me? I wanted with all of my heart to get on the phone to the doctor and ask him for something more, even a little bit of Tylenol.

It is drilled into our heads during class time that there is no reason for a person to have severe pain. We are to assess and reassess how pain meds are working and make sure that we get the pain level down to an acceptable/ manageable number. I've experienced at least 2 times in the last couple of months at clinicals that have confused me because I felt that the patient was undermedicated and the nurse disagreed with me and didn't seek additional pain relief. I'll give the two situations and maybe someone can help me understand the reasoning a little better.

The first lady, Mrs. A, was a terminal cancer patient who had been in the hospital for several weeks, with increasing pain. She refused hospice because she thought that she would get better. The last week of my clinical at that facility, Mrs. A was suffering greatly and asked for pain medication often. When I reported to the nurse that Mrs. A was still in pain even though she had been given all the medication that she could have, the nurse said that there was nothing more we could do for her because she refused hospice. Once she goes to hospice, the nurse said, they could increase her pain meds (she was on morphine and various other pain meds). I asked her why we couldn't manage her pain anyways and she said that there was some kind of limitation on how much morphine that could be given without being on hospice. ??? Could someone please explain this to me. I felt so awful for this poor woman. I don't know what happened to her after I left. I can only imagine that her pain got severe enough that she eventually requested hospice services so that she could get pain relief. :(

The second event happened today during my clinical at a subacute facility. Mrs. B is a post surgery pt. in pain, rating her pain at 7/10, with moaning and fidgeting. I didn't take her bp (someone else had taken it) but I took the rest of her vitals and they were within the normal range. She had had 1 vicodin 2.5 hours earlier and it was clearly not lasting long enough. She only had vicodin ordered-1 or 2 tablets. No tylenol, no nothing else for pain. I let the nurse know this and she said that there was nothing more to do for Mrs. B because she couldn't have more vicodin for another 1.5 hours. I asked her if it might be possible to get an order for something else, even Tylenol, and she said that we would just wait and the next time we would give her two vicodin instead of one. The reasoning was that maybe the vicodin would work longer next time with the higher dose. Ok, my question here is, I understand wanting to give the vicodin a chance, but what would be so bad about addressing the pain she was having that very minute? I felt so helpless. I went back to the patient's room and adjusted her and tried to make her as comfortable as possible. I checked her often and adjusted her as much as she wanted. I talked to my instructor and explained what happened and she pretty much agreed with the nurse that unfortunately, sometimes there is nothing more you can do for a person. :( I guess I'm just really confused. What would have been the harm in picking up the phone and letting the doc know the patient was in pain and needed something more for pain? I don't want to act like I don't trust my instructor's or the nurse's judgement. They know a great deal more than I do, so could someone please explain this to me? I wanted with all of my heart to get on the phone to the doctor and ask him for something more, even a little bit of Tylenol.

Note i am not a nurse.

I have no clue about A but B the pain should have been addressed. I had a kinda simmilar thing this summer. the nurse did not want to get a nother order i had a pca pump ordered but the needed to assemble (?) it. and before i was moved from icu to nuro floor i had asked for pain med and they said wait untill i was on the floor. when on the floor i was told to wait untill they had assembled my pca pump. it took them about an hour and a half to realize it was taking them to long and gave me a regular iv dose. i was about an 8/10 though i was not at that time asked what my pain level was i was just told to wait. i was glad when i did not have that nurse again during my stay.

I had a post op pt last night with an order for hydromorphone 1-2mg q20-30 min....Now thats pain mgmt.

Lisa,

Good for you for speaking up to try to help your patients that are in pain. We need nore nursing students/nurses like you.

I don't agree with either nurse or the instructor in the situations above.

I also wanted to tell you about my experience with pain. I am 38 and have ovarian cancer. But I am not dying! And I'm not in denial! I am on Avastin and Taxol and my tumors are decreasing. I have had severe abdominal pain for several months due to these tumors and also scar tissue from the TAH/BSO to remove my 1st tumor. At first, Percocet was helping. When it was no longer decreasing the pain, I told my GYN oncologist. She prescribed Oxycontin. This did not help. Then she prescribed MS Contin. This did not help. Now, I am on Fentanyl (Duragesic) patch all the time with MSIR (po morphine intermediate acting) for breakthrough pain. This regimen does work. So, pain can be managed-and I am not on hospice (nor should I be on hospice). As, someone posted above, cancer patients do not need to worry about addiction.

Please keep speaking up to the nurses/instructors and when you are on your own, to the MD, for your patients in pain. That is what being a patient advocate is about.

Good luck!

Stephanie RN

just a comment from a surgery patient...Fentanyl works wonders. I am allergic to morphine (get a horrible rash when ever I have it) so this time they tried Fentanyl PCA worked wonders and no reaction.

I love PCA pumps. I have noticed too that pt's with them feel more in control of their pain psychologically, and less apprehensive which heightens the perception of pain.

I do to i have had a few surgeries and have used one since i was five...i think that when you press the button...even if it is not time for your next dose...you psychologically think o i am getting meds and feel better anyway. just my :twocents:

I just had a similar discussion with a patient last night. They discontinued his PCA. Was in a bad MVA. Had broken everything and gaping wounds. Told him they were going to put him on oxycodone BID. No one bothered to get the SureMed stocked and just left him waiting. Oxycodone was ordered @ 14:00. The docs also did not tell him that he was able to get PRN percocet 1-2 every four hours in between the oxycodone. I walked in to my shift and found him in agony. He had been give ONE percocet @ 14:30 and had nothing since. It was 20:15!!!! This man thought he couldn't get another med for pain until 8 am!:angryfire That should have been addressed long before I got there that night. Needless to say, I got him medicated and we had a little talk about pain control. We went over his regimen and got him settled. I also told him that it was not set in stone. If what he was prescribed was not working that we needed to know. If one of us needed to get a one time order to get severe pain under control that we could do it. Not everyone fits under one treatment umbrella. I mean if the percocet is getting him 3.5 hours out of four and his pain is in the middle of the 1-10 scale, that's one thing. But if it's 7, 8, 9, 10 and he has three more hours to go, it needs to be addressed.

Sorry, off my soapbox . . . . . . . :sofahider

This is unacceptable (of course NOT you the other nurses and his doctor for not informing of his pain controle options and to tell a nurse) i understand why he did not tell. untill my last surgery (when i had been a member here for a few months and read about how you WANT your patients to tell you) i did not want to complain about my pain so i would lie there in pain and when asked i would lie and down play my pain just this summer did i start to tell the truth to my nurses and doctors. i also asked for my eye ointment to be more frequent (lacri-lube i could only have it every four hours by nurse but one of the nurses "forgot" it in my room and untill that order was changed my mom put it in my eye) (you see my eye was and still it and will be till i have my next surgery open so my eye gets dry alot) o and the doc did change the order to when ever i needed it

sorry about all the replys i guess i have a lot to say about pain manegment :sofahider

It is drilled into our heads during class time that there is no reason for a person to have severe pain. We are to assess and reassess how pain meds are working and make sure that we get the pain level down to an acceptable/ manageable number. I've experienced at least 2 times in the last couple of months at clinicals that have confused me because I felt that the patient was undermedicated and the nurse disagreed with me and didn't seek additional pain relief. I'll give the two situations and maybe someone can help me understand the reasoning a little better.

The first lady, Mrs. A, was a terminal cancer patient who had been in the hospital for several weeks, with increasing pain. She refused hospice because she thought that she would get better. The last week of my clinical at that facility, Mrs. A was suffering greatly and asked for pain medication often. When I reported to the nurse that Mrs. A was still in pain even though she had been given all the medication that she could have, the nurse said that there was nothing more we could do for her because she refused hospice. Once she goes to hospice, the nurse said, they could increase her pain med s (she was on morphine and various other pain meds). I asked her why we couldn't manage her pain anyways and she said that there was some kind of limitation on how much morphine that could be given without being on hospice. ??? Could someone please explain this to me. I felt so awful for this poor woman. I don't know what happened to her after I left. I can only imagine that her pain got severe enough that she eventually requested hospice services so that she could get pain relief. :(

The second event happened today during my clinical at a subacute facility. Mrs. B is a post surgery pt. in pain, rating her pain at 7/10, with moaning and fidgeting. I didn't take her bp (someone else had taken it) but I took the rest of her vitals and they were within the normal range. She had had 1 vicodin 2.5 hours earlier and it was clearly not lasting long enough. She only had vicodin ordered-1 or 2 tablets. No tylenol, no nothing else for pain. I let the nurse know this and she said that there was nothing more to do for Mrs. B because she couldn't have more vicodin for another 1.5 hours. I asked her if it might be possible to get an order for something else, even Tylenol, and she said that we would just wait and the next time we would give her two vicodin instead of one. The reasoning was that maybe the vicodin would work longer next time with the higher dose. Ok, my question here is, I understand wanting to give the vicodin a chance, but what would be so bad about addressing the pain she was having that very minute? I felt so helpless. I went back to the patient's room and adjusted her and tried to make her as comfortable as possible. I checked her often and adjusted her as much as she wanted. I talked to my instructor and explained what happened and she pretty much agreed with the nurse that unfortunately, sometimes there is nothing more you can do for a person. :( I guess I'm just really confused. What would have been the harm in picking up the phone and letting the doc know the patient was in pain and needed something more for pain? I don't want to act like I don't trust my instructor's or the nurse's judgement. They know a great deal more than I do, so could someone please explain this to me? I wanted with all of my heart to get on the phone to the doctor and ask him for something more, even a little bit of Tylenol.

Hey there. I work oncology and pain management is a huge part of my job. In your 1st scenario. I do not agree with the nurse. She should have called the dr to get a better order. I have never heard of someone having to wait until they are admitted to hospice to get adequate pain relief!! I had a patient once (NO LIE) getting a dilaudid drip at 52 MG an HOUR!!! Plus she had a 200mcg Duragesic patch on her as well.

Regarding the second scenario. I would have given the 2nd Vicodin now. The order was for 1-2 tabs and she only got one...well then I would give her the 2nd one. I think some nurses are afraid of "overdosing" a patient. When you work in Oncology where Dilaudid drips/Morphine boluses and pain management big guns are used often...that fear goes away and it enables us to be better at pain management.

Here is how I manage pain. I look at the PRNs then I go into the pt room and ask about the pain level. I then will tell them all the meds they are allowed to have...I give them a choice as to which to try. If their pain is a 3 and they want the heavy duty pain med, I try to encourage them to try the less heavy duty one first.

I inform them how often they may have their med. I let them know that I will be checking back to see if the pain is resolved. I will also come back to check on them when the next dose is due and if they need it, its available and if not...then that is wonderful.

It works really well in controlling pain, because since I am so on top of it, the pain level remains low and doesn't climb unchecked. :)

Specializes in L & D; Postpartum.
I had a post op pt last night with an order for hydromorphone 1-2mg q20-30 min....Now thats pain mgmt.

Having two "ranges" in one order is a new and big huge JCAHO no-no. They hammered and hammered that into us and our docs before the visit from the big honchos this summer. You can have 1-2 mg q 20 min or 1-2 q 30 min, but not what was ordered. I don't necessarily agree with it; just another thing JCAHO came up with to create more paper work, things to ding us on. I agree that pain management needs to have parameters that allow some flexibility, however.

Question for you... Since Mrs. B had a prn order 1-2 tabs and had only been given 1 tab, would it have been ok to give her the other vicodin? I know it would have messed up the time schedule, but could that have been a solution? No one suggested it so I didn't even think of it until this evening.

Yep, you bet she could and should have been given the second Vicodin. I'd have given that, and if it still did not control the pain effectively until the next dose was due (at which time I would have given her 2 tabs) I would have called the doc and brainstormed with him/her to find something that would work.

Thanks for being such a caring student. It is so important to be a patient advocate! - you'll be a great nurse. :)

Specializes in Float.

I just finished my first semester and got to have a neat teaching experience on my 2nd to last clinical. I had 3 pts that day as we were just doing very light care duties so that we could meet back early. One was a TAH. She was guarding and moving slowly, and grimacing. I noticed she was no longer on an IV. I asked her to tell me about her pain and sure enough she was experiencing a pain like on a 7 if I remember correctly. I asked had she been given anything and she said NO. I checked her chart and sure enough PRN percocet. I found an RN who promptly brought her 2 percocet. I was able to explain to the pt that she should experience some relief in about 15 minutes. I checked back and asked if it was helping. She smiled and said "yes..yes it is! Thank you!"

I then explained that she need not be in a lot of pain, that meds could at least make it tolerable and to not try and be brave. I was able to teach her about how it's easier to manage if we keep it at a steady level instead of letting it peak. No one had explained to her to ASK.

Sadly I think there can be a lack of communication if the pt isn't educated. The nurse may think the pt will ask, and the pt thinks the nurse will bring it when it is due. I guess that is why it's drilled in our heads to assess pain frequently! LOL

Anyway, I felt really proud that day to be able to educate the pt and to help ease her pain! I also had the opportunity to teach her about coughing. She literally panicked when she had to cough. No one had taught her how to splint her stomach and that coughing is a good thing. She was scared to death of it!

It's nice to be a student and have that extra time to really get to assess the pt and spend time with them :) I know I have become sooo much more in tune and aware of what is going on and able to see what the pt needs before they realize it than when I first started and all I could think about was how nervous "I" was LOL

Patients with cancer usually don't get adequate pain meds.

It's the ER frequent-flyers complaining of headaches and back pain that get narcs out the wazoo...........:angryfire

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