How much for your soul? (This is very long.)

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This is an open ended, rhetorical question for anyone who is in management that used to be a regular staff/floor nurse. This is for those nurses who used to be one of the girls and who would get their butts beat down in the trenches on a regular basis alongside his or her coworkers and who then accepted positions of leadership such as charge nurse, nurse manager, dept. head, administrator etc..

I have to ask collectively, what happened to you? Why did you sell out? Was it really worth the few extra bucks thrown your way? Or is it that you are so insecure about yourself that the crumbs of power thrown your way along with your meaningless title somehow make you feel better about yourself?

I keep hearing about how the costs of healthcare have risen 20% every year for the last five years now. But relative to inflation, my overall compensation has actually dropped a bit when you factor in increased deductions for my benefits. Therefore, I think I am quite right in saying that the rising costs of medical care are not my fault. Yet somehow, I am the one who is being asked to make up for those rising costs in the form of increased patient loads, having to do more work with less resources and being basically told to shut up and be a "team player" lest someone else need to be found who will do the same work with a smile.

Whose idea was it to shift the burden for data entry to the nursing staff under the guise of "computerized charting"? When you tell me it is computerized charting, what that means to me is that I chart my assessments, interventions and outcomes on a computer as opposed to on paper. Instead, what I am finding, both from my own experience and from those of my peers is that we now have to do both because there is no way I can explain to a jury what I saw, what I did and what happened as a result of my observations/actions using the computer programs you are forcing me to use. Although, I am sure there are more than a few coding and data entry specialists off your payroll now. When you were a floor nurse, would you have been dancing around, bubbling with excitement about having to essentially do double charting? Then why are you so surprised that I am not?

Have you not realized that as medicine has become more advanced and specialized, so too has nursing? When you were working on the floor, were you comfortable with having a co-worker who only works in an ER setting and had never even been orientated to your unit? Were you comfortable being floated to a critical care setting when you had no critical care experience? This attitude and mentality that an RN is an RN and can do anything required of an RN is just insane. Having an ER nurse float to a dialysis floor with no experience is akin to having an ENT doctor working in the Cardiac Cath. Lab for the day. It is unheard of. It would not happen. Yet it is just fine and dandy for your RN's to be shafted like this. Don't you remember when that would happen and you would roll your eyes, shake your head and complain to the brick walls above you wearing the suits? Now you are in the unique position of having a say about things like this, you're the one wearing the suit and yet you do nothing! Is there a part of you that still cares?

When your boss tells you that in order to save money, support staff will be cut and your nurses will have to pick up the slack, why do you roll over and say nothing? Remember how annoying it was when a housekeeper would call out sick on your shift and you would either have to hide the messes or simply clean it up on top of your regular patient care responsibilities? Then why is it that you are OK with the wholesale cutting of support staff to save money and shifting that burden to the nurses. I know that you have responsibilities to your bosses and to your budget and I actually do respect that. But, just as you work FOR the people above you, remember that you also work FOR the people below you as well.

Nursing is consistently ranked as the top most trusted profession, not only in this country, but in the world. And for good reason. For most people, the word "Nurse" implies a trust and a sacred bond. Peoples lives and wellbeing are quite literally in our hands. From my own personal perspective, I feel that I have a duty to uphold that perception of trust for the sake of my chosen profession. I find it abhorrent to have to do anything that may lessen that perception in the eyes of the people I serve. I have very serious concerns when I am told that I need to do things like collect billing, contact and insurance information or I need to escort the patient to a co-payment collection desk, even if it is at the end of their visit. I see the possibility of people then wondering where my true loyalties lie. Is it to the patients wellbeing or to the account's receivable department? Can you, as a boss, at least see where I am coming from on this? Or is that twenty bucks really more important than the trust that has been painstakingly earned over the last century? I still remember back to my nursing 1 class when I learned that even up to the mid 1800's, whores and hookers who were convicted in the courts were still given the option of 6 months in jail or 6 months labor in a hospital as a nurse.

When did public relations and marketing become a larger part of nursing responsibilities? At my soon to be former hospital, the nurses are required to make follow up calls within 24 hours of a patient being discharged. I was told we have to do this because it has been proven to raise scores on patient satisfaction surveys. So in essence, you are not interested in the patient's opinion of their stay here, your are interested in their overall perception of our facility in general. Basically, you are just peachy in "queering up" the numbers as long as they look better in the end. Looking at this from a broader sense, to what end does that accomplish? Say you do eventually get the high score, say you actually find yourself ahead of Mr. and Mrs. Jones, what do you win that justifies whoring out your nurses for cheap and tawdry marketing gimmicks? Getting back to the point of this rant, would this have been acceptable when you were working on the floor? Would you have rolled out of bed and celebrated the fact that on top of patient care, you also got to call back all the patients you discharged yesterday? I didn't think so.

Along with that pay raise and your added responsibilities, you were also given a title when you moved up the ladder. Remember when one of your co-workers was promoted and then morphed into a complete jerk who could not be approached or questioned lest you be accused of being disrespectful? Is that you? Because if it is, I will remind you that while I do have to give at least a token amount of respect to your title, I do not have to give you, personally, any respect what so ever. If you want respect, you have to earn it. Don't worry, it really is not all that hard to do. I would suggest starting by respecting the professionals you are charged to provide leadership for. You have no idea how far basic human respect and courtesy go.

Do you recall how hard it was to get your license? Remember how precious it was when you got it in your hands? Remember your more seasoned co-workers telling you to be careful in what you do so that it may not be suspended or revoked and wondering and even being a little anxious about that? I certainly do. Now that you are above that, why is it OK now, for you to put those licensed professionals below you in precarious licensure situations by winking at dangerous staffing levels, decreasing support and eliminating resources to save money? Before you think to yourself that you are not that type of manager, I will ask you if you are willing to personally take responsibility for those cost saving measures? If you are, good for you! But until I see, in writing, a policy stating that those in charge are fully and solely responsible for situations that arise from those cost saving measures, then you are little more than a blowhard hypocrite in my eyes. I know that, should push come to shove, you will be the one signing the letter that details my incompetence to my nursing board. You will write how I neglected my patient to their detriment and conveniently omit the fact that you were the one gave me a 10 patient, high acuity assignment with little or no help. And to hearken back, yet again, to the point of this, were you cool with situations like this when you were faced with them on the floor?

From my overall perspective, the problems now in nursing can be traced to two main things. The great redesign debacle of the 80's and 90's where experienced and seasoned nurses were forced out in favor of younger and cheaper nurses and their wholly inadequate support staff. This caused 2 ill turns of fortune in our profession. It embittered a lot of experienced nurses who were forced out of their good paying jobs and in which they were expert in doing. Even to the point where, by word of mouth, they discouraged many younger people to avoid this honored profession. It also led to early burnout and embittered those left behind who were expected to take a huge responsibility with ridiculously inadequate support. We are paying for that not only now but will pay for it for a for a long time to come. The other thing currently conspiring against nursing is the influence of HMO's. To that end, don't blame me because you, the hospital administrator except below cost compensation for the care that is provided for their paying customers. In my opinion, the 20% annual increase in health care costs, in large part, are going mostly towards Wall Street in the form of profits, dividends and excessive compensation. I would like to avoid terms like pillage, profiteering and exploitation but no better ones come to mind.

Do you see the common denominator in my perception? They way I see it, more and more, patient care is being dictated by accountants who have never touched a patient in their lives save for reaching around them and grabbing hold of their wallet. Why is it that way? Why do you let that happen? Why do you go along with everything they say? You, my former comrades in arms, are increasingly acting like little more than the impotent, minion mouthpiece you have collectively become. Increasingly, selling out your own.

If, dear boss, this is you, may you choke on those 30 pieces of silver you sold your passion, loyalty and very soul for. I may be overworked, unappreciated and underpaid, but at least I can still look in a mirror and see a person of integrity staring back.

"what i find very ironic and sad is that with the government's push for "safety", hospitals continue to do one of the most unsafe of all things.. that is to put nurses in unfamiliar surroundings and expect them to perform unfamiliar tasks."

i couldnt have said it better myself....as i have been saying on this site for a long time......allowing a nurse to gain competency in an unfamiliar area or a unfamiliar job that he/she is not used to performing is not the correct ethical thing to do. someone here said ...that nsg has gotten so specialized it is crazy to not give orientation if you are going to be expected to work in a diff area.it is truly like asking a cardiac doc to perform neurosurgery........he/she might be able to do it(maybe)....but i bet ya it wouldnt be pretty...and it sure as heck wouldnt be the safest thing for the patient. that patient might miss doing the little things ....like walking and talking....

Specializes in LDRP; Education.

Bipley - ROCK ON.

I'm not a people manager but I work in an administrative role. And I totally get the "management food poisoning" you describe.

Top leadership needs to see evidence of patient education documentation. Staff nurses complain about the system to document. I try to fix it. But it's always my fault. The staff blame me for the system; the admin blames me for our lousy quality indicator scores.

I think it is misguided to make generalizations about people; especially if those generalizations are based on a person's job. No person should be defined by their position, especialy by another person.

In every profession there are some corporate suck-ups and there are some employee advocates. The corporate suck-ups are the people who will never question their boss and can be blamed for the worsening conditions. The empolyee advocates make a great working enviroment while trying to stick to the basic guidelines that they must to keep their job.

But I have to say, if you are working for a manager who is doing what they need to keep their job and that is somehow wrong, why are you still working there? Is not not just as wrong for an employee to take it just like these specific managers do? I mean, by just allowing it to happen you are perpetuating the problem just as badly. (By "you", I am not refering to anyone specifically, I mean universally)

I have worked in retail management and always told my employees that customer service is important; I also told them that I do not care what their complaint is, if they ever make a personal attack on any employee that customer MUST leave even if we have to file trespassing charges. I know this does not apply 100% to nursing but the basic concept is the same.

My point is that in beaurcracies there needs to be pressure from/to all sides. A corporate suckup thinks the pressure should only go down the chain of command; you are suggesting the very opposite. Both views are wrong.

I think it is misguided to make generalizations about people; especially if those generalizations are based on a person's job. No person should be defined by their position, especialy by another person.

In every profession there are some corporate suck-ups and there are some employee advocates. The corporate suck-ups are the people who will never question their boss and can be blamed for the worsening conditions. The empolyee advocates make a great working enviroment while trying to stick to the basic guidelines that they must to keep their job.

But I have to say, if you are working for a manager who is doing what they need to keep their job and that is somehow wrong, why are you still working there? Is not not just as wrong for an employee to take it just like these specific managers do? I mean, by just allowing it to happen you are perpetuating the problem just as badly. (By "you", I am not refering to anyone specifically, I mean universally)

I have worked in retail management and always told my employees that customer service is important; I also told them that I do not care what their complaint is, if they ever make a personal attack on any employee that customer MUST leave even if we have to file trespassing charges. I know this does not apply 100% to nursing but the basic concept is the same.

My point is that in beaurcracies there needs to be pressure from/to all sides. A corporate suckup thinks the pressure should only go down the chain of command; you are suggesting the very opposite. Both views are wrong.

With all due respect dear Ruex, I think you may have misinterpreted the point I was trying to make. My post was not intended to be a gratuitous bash on management per say. (But if it was you I was describing and you decided to be offended by it, oh well!) It was more of a vent/rant over the state of nursing and the direction it is heading.

I am incredulously frustrated by the fact that at every hospital, nursing is the largest single employee population. There is a nursing shortage. Going by the “law” of supply and demand, we have the supply, hospitals have the demand. As a whole, nurses should be the ones dictating how we are going to practice our craft and at what compensation. At the very least, WE should at least have a say in what we do, regardless of how it economically affects the facility. (To put it another way, do you honestly think the average hospital CEO gives a damn how his or her decisions economically effect us?)

What I just don’t understand is how a person who rose up above the level of patient care to a management/leadership position, who at one time at least had an actual clue about what it is like to be a nurse can go along and even promote some of these idiotic decisions that are handed down by management. It is to those people I addressed this post to. If I were in that middle manager position, I would like to think that I would speak up and say that idea “X” is time consuming or will decrease productivity or is illogical from an application standpoint or whatever. Quite frankly, I don’t see it. All I get in private conversations with my bosses are excuses like, “I have no choice”, “My hands are tied”, “This is just the way it’s going to be”, and bla, bla, bla.

My answer to that is if one has no choice, if ones hands are tied, if it really does have to be that that way, it is because THEY DON’T HAVE THE GUTS TO STAND UP AND SAY SOMETHING! They have decided not to rock the boat and risk their schedule, their salary, their position because they are afraid they will lose them. If one is OK with that, good for them. I really mean that. Just don’t get offended and hurt when someone comes along and has the audacity and the unmitigated gall to call them the sell out they have become. That’s all.

As far as what you wrote, I respectfully disagree on some points and agree on others. I think making a judgment about a person based on what they do IS fair and happens all the time. To make an extreme example, I am quite sure the majority of people convicted of war crimes were good husbands, fathers and neighbors.

I am in 100% agreement with you on the suck-up verses advocate point. The problem is that there are very few advocates and far too many suck-ups.

Implying that lower and middle management go along with the program in order to keep their jobs is sadly, the way it is now a-days. But the difference between people in my position verses people in their positions is that I have no access to the people in the upper levels like they do. When I do get that access and I try to initiate a respectful, professional debate about decisions they make, more and more, I am told that I am being insubordinate as my thoughts are dismissed out of hand.

I am a very outspoken person and I do say what is on my mind, what I am thinking. But it usually winds up being a conversation between myself and a brick wall. If I use the alleged “open door policy” to speak to the higher ups, I am told I need to follow my chain of command. When I have followed my chain of command, I have been beat down as a result of it, EVERY TIME, for inevitably stepping on someone else’s toes. (Note to the management types who might be reading this. When you say you have an open door policy, then be true to your word and have one. Otherwise, you lose credibility.)

I wish more bosses in nursing would not put up with allowing their nurses to be abused and disrespected. I applaud you for that. I am exaggerating, (but only a little), when I say that I am sure there is more than one administrator out there who would not dismiss out of hand a suggestion for us to work topless if they thought it would increase revenue and have a significant impact upon their satisfaction scores. No matter how humiliating and degrading it would be to us.

My solution is not to have the pressure go only up. Ideally, not only would nurses have direct input in how we do our jobs, it would actually be listened to and taken seriously instead of being dismissed out of hand, or worse, paid token lip service too. We have ourselves that have to be respected as well as our craft and most importantly those that we serve. As far as I am concerned, the sensless worship of the almighty corporate bottom line, while a concern to me, comes last. Not a realistic view in todays world, but one I hold true too.

"With all due respect dear Ruex, I think you may have misinterpreted the point I was trying to make. My post was not intended to be a gratuitous bash on management per say."

--But you worded it as a generalization, so I took it that you meant it that way.

"At the very least, WE should at least have a say in what we do, regardless of how it economically affects the facility. (To put it another way, do you honestly think the average hospital CEO gives a damn how his or her decisions economically effect us?)"

--I totally agree. Form a union and make them care.

" If I were in that middle manager position, I would like to think that I would speak up and say that idea “X” is time consuming or will decrease productivity or is illogical from an application standpoint or whatever."

-- But to get that position requires one to sell their soul. So, progress is not even possible by the logic presented becuase the people in the position are bad, and anyone entering the position will instantly become bad. Well, that was my understanding of your original post but you did say that you did not mean it so generally; so, I guess that is an invalid point now.

"Quite frankly, I don’t see it. All I get in private conversations with my bosses are excuses like, “I have no choice”, “My hands are tied”, “This is just the way it’s going to be”, and bla, bla, bla."

--That doesn't mean they didn't try.

"I think making a judgment about a person based on what they do IS fair and happens all the time."

-- Judgement on an individual because of what that individual does is necessary and fine. However, I was trying to say that making a generalization about a group of people based on their job is kind of wrong.

"But the difference between people in my position verses people in their positions is that I have no access to the people in the upper levels like they do."

--Sometimes their access is very limited too. Do you think all their bosses really care what they have to say? Maybe they are saying it.

--------------------

Look, I know where you are coming from; I am rather socialist, personally. I believe in employee rights 100%. I think you should be able to openly discuss workplace problems free of punishment. But these managers are not your enemy. I would suggest looking into the Milgram Experiment if you are not familiar with it. It kind of describes how corporations work if you think about it. Attacking your superviser is not going to fix the problem.

Also, your first paragraph seems like it is implying that I am souless. But no, I am not in management.

Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.

I think to be a mid-level manager in just about any place these days is a no-win proposition. My sister quit an upper-mid-level mgt job, making well over 120k, with nearly 20 years' seniority, all because of all the crap being leveled at her from "both ends"......she just could not stand the games and manipulations by superiors and subordinates, alike. Could not take seeing the promises made to her year after year, that were unkept by her administrators and direct supervisor. It was all so stressful and she was constantly unhappy. NO money is worth that.....

So, after 20 years in this company, working there since high school, she quit, taking a job that pays barely over 1/2 what she made before, but she lost weight, lost the stress and constant sleepless nights of worry, unpaid overtime---- and sleeps well at night now--- plus, she has time for her kids that she never did before. No more waiting at the mercy of her master manipulator of a boss to "let" her have her vacations to be with her family......No more 12 hour days and weekends to "get things done". More power to her. Don't blame her a bit......

To put it bluntly, I feel for nurse managers today. They really have a rough go. There just is not enough pay or benefits there for me to really consider pressing for my BSN/MSN to become a nurse manager or any sort. They deserve much better, but only get pulled apart from both ends----not for me, no way.

My hat is off to you who rose to the challenge. Only hoping you can keep your sanity as you do your daily work. God bless you all.

Specializes in Med/Surg, ICU, educator.

this is so true. after you adjust for inflation, nursing pay has only increased by $360 per year in the last 20 years. so ... that's only an extra $30 a month which is easily wiped out by increased benefit deductions.

yet, every time nurses ask for a pay raise, they're told they're going to bust the healthcare system. that 20 percent annual increase in healthcare costs is not going to nursing salaries. it's going to hospital profits.

you know what's even sadder? they can't give hospital staff a raise--not just nurses, but everybody--but yet you read the quarterly reports of the big insurance companies and they make millions and billions in profits.....makes you kinda wonder :uhoh3:

I have been told by the nursing supervisor on several occasions to "flex up" , "suck it up", or "punt" in regards to unsafe ratios.

To me, this has always been a curious response; it seems that if a sup. felt justified in making such a comment, the RN would be justified in asking the sup. if they were willing to support them after their license comes up before the state board for making a costly error. Or better yet, hand them a pair of scrubs and tell them to start flexin'. I'm pretty sure I'd get in a bit of trouble if a sup. made such an asinine statement.

Not sure I agree with that. While I do believe it certainly feels that way at times it really doesn't mean that.

Much of what you say is reasonable, but I'm having a hard time understanding what you didn't agree with--the whole customer service equating that the customer is always right thing? If that is it, I assure you that in retail, restaurants, etc. the customer is always right. Interview for any management job in those industries and I'd almost guarantee the interviewer will ask if they are always right in some form or another (trying to slip it in to get a quick response). Try to argue when the customer isn't right and you just lost the job. And when you are asked why the customer is always right, you better say because they pay our salaries.

"With all due respect dear Ruex, I think you may have misinterpreted the point I was trying to make. My post was not intended to be a gratuitous bash on management per say."

--But you worded it as a generalization, so I took it that you meant it that way.

"At the very least, WE should at least have a say in what we do, regardless of how it economically affects the facility. (To put it another way, do you honestly think the average hospital CEO gives a damn how his or her decisions economically effect us?)"

--I totally agree. Form a union and make them care.

" If I were in that middle manager position, I would like to think that I would speak up and say that idea "X" is time consuming or will decrease productivity or is illogical from an application standpoint or whatever."

-- But to get that position requires one to sell their soul. So, progress is not even possible by the logic presented becuase the people in the position are bad, and anyone entering the position will instantly become bad. Well, that was my understanding of your original post but you did say that you did not mean it so generally; so, I guess that is an invalid point now.

"Quite frankly, I don't see it. All I get in private conversations with my bosses are excuses like, "I have no choice", "My hands are tied", "This is just the way it's going to be", and bla, bla, bla."

--That doesn't mean they didn't try.

"I think making a judgment about a person based on what they do IS fair and happens all the time."

-- Judgement on an individual because of what that individual does is necessary and fine. However, I was trying to say that making a generalization about a group of people based on their job is kind of wrong.

"But the difference between people in my position verses people in their positions is that I have no access to the people in the upper levels like they do."

--Sometimes their access is very limited too. Do you think all their bosses really care what they have to say? Maybe they are saying it.

--------------------

Look, I know where you are coming from; I am rather socialist, personally. I believe in employee rights 100%. I think you should be able to openly discuss workplace problems free of punishment. But these managers are not your enemy. I would suggest looking into the Milgram Experiment if you are not familiar with it. It kind of describes how corporations work if you think about it. Attacking your superviser is not going to fix the problem.

Also, your first paragraph seems like it is implying that I am souless. But no, I am not in management.

You know what Ruex? I really do appreciate your thoughts. Makes me look at my way of thinking from a different standpoint. (An added bonus as far as having this forum as an outlet, if you were my director, I would have been tossed out of your office a long time ago!) :roll

I too have a socialist mindset. My view on this "management verses employee" debate, from a nursing outlook, is that there are two polar opposite and diametrically opposing points of view working here. Administrators are looking at it from a bottom line perspective as well as looking after themselves. I am looking at this from a patient care perspective as well as looking after myself.

The fundamental difference between nurses and nearly every other profession is that we, as nurses, are theoretically holding all of the cards. (RE: Supply and demand.) But we don't use them! To put it bluntly, we should be kicking some serious butt right now. But we are not! I just can't fathom why we, as a collective, don't have "them" by the proverbial nuts at this point. We don't play those cards. By this line of reason, if this were the late 90's and we were IT specialists in the dot.com industry, every nurse would have a 6 figure income, pool tables in every break room, and 50,000 shares of stock options right now.

At this point, we can't be eliminated, (OMG! MD's might have to do actual, hands on patient work? Won't happen!), we can't be outsourced. We are nationally and officially recognized as professionals by our respective states and the licensure boards that have been empowered to regulate us. Surveys consistently tell us that we are the most trusted profession on this planet. Yet we, as a collective allow ourselves to be walked on at almost every turn, even to the very detriment of the perception of our profession. Seriously, why is that?

I would be all for unions but for the fact that unions inevitably ensure that time in service is rewarded above hard work and actual competency. (I, personally, abhor that philosophical line of thinking because I actually do work hard in what I do.)

Bottom line, we, in a collective sense, are friggen wimps! But you know what? Our so called "leadership" are worse. They are worse because they are one step higher up on the food chain. They could actually make a difference, but they choose not to. They, (former nurses now in management), could, collectively make a difference. But that is not the way it is. They take the path of least resistance. Not only do they submissively acquiesce as slovenly minions from the directives from above, they do it with seriousness in their eyes and with a strait face. And that really pisses me off!

THAT is why I openly wonder how much the soul of a nurse goes for when they turn management.

slovenly minion?? I took on a management position because no one else was applying for it (after 2yrs). We were about to hire a person no one trusted for this position. So, I said -why not ? Maybe I can make a difference. We are pulled in both directions. There's a great deal of work and responsibility. Also, we work right alongside with our employees and often stay late to finish our "other" work. There are many classes and meetings to attend and so much paperwork. I often have no time to take a meal break at work, yet I cover the lpns and everyone else when they eat or smoke. Don't label all managers and especially as slovenly and soul-less. You seem so bitter..why don't you become a manager then you will see what it's really like!

Well, yes unions can create some poor systems but that doesn't have to be the only way either.

More importantly, I try not to ever make a social problem between (groups of) people but rather between people and ideas or systems.

Just after Sept 11, I was in an English class and my professor asked "Those people who blew up the towers, they were evil people, right?, they were monsters, weren't they?" The class fell for it an agreed that they were all monsters. And she went on, "lucky for them, because if they were not inherently bad we could have expected more of them but this way, they never have to worry about our forgive." She explained that when you take someone's humanity away, you basically forgive the actions because nothing better was expected of them. Monsters will be monsters; and those without souls will be without souls.

But if you do not make enemies of the people on the other side of the issue, maybe they will join you once they see you are right. I do not mean take a demotion but maybe they would help your cause. Not makeing them into enemies is hard, almost impossibe to accomplish but I think it is an important goal. It is like the cliche with the bees, honey and vinegar.

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