HIPAA violation or not..?

UM Review RN, ASN, RN · Oct 18, 2006

I may be thrown off this forum but in all honesty, some of your replies sound like she killed someone. Every place I've worked there are HIPPA violations going on all over the place involving staff talking about patients in non-confidential terms. There are far worse things being done every day.
She made a mistake. She probably thought more about informing her friends for their sake and HIPPA was secondary. She can review HIPPA and get on with her career. If it keeps happening then she should be removed.
Can you honestly say that if your best friend's mother was brought in to the hospital you wouldn't call your friend?

No, I wouldn't.

Better question: Can you honestly say that if your best friend's mother was in the hospital that your best friend doesn't know about it? So why do you have a need to inform them? Did the patient ask you to call?

I have a few family members that I would NOT want to know of a hospitalization. They're pushy, they ignore the rules, they make unreasonable demands on me and the staff, and worst of all, they're waiting like a pack of vulture to pounce on me as soon as I get home to recover.

I don't want them to know that I'm sick--and therefore vulnerable.

HIPAA governs more than just healthcare workers. It governs anyone who has any access to my private health information.

Please, even if you can't understand or respect my personal wishes as a patient or an individual, please know that this is the law, and though it can be inconvenient in some ways for some of us, it's a blessing to others.

Jolie, BSN · Oct 18, 2006

Let's assume for a moment that this student made the phone call without the patient's consent.

I think we would all agree that constitutes a HIPAA violation. Then the question becomes: What should her punishment be? Is it too harsh to dismiss her from the class? In my opinion, no. Here's why:

Most nursing education programs rely on good-will agreements with local hospitals and healthcare facilities to provide adequate clinical sites for their students. Unlike the "olden days" when nursing schools were run by hospitals, most community college and university-based nursing programs do not own or control the hospitals where their clinicals take place. They are essentially "guests" of the hospitals that agree to provide clinical sites. That makes it possible for a hospital to terminate a clinical agreement with a nursing program if having the nursing students present creates too much of a "burden" or liability on the hosital. Having a student create a situation where the hospital could be liable for a federal violation, might make the hospital administration decide that it is no longer worth their while to welcome students from this particular nursing program. While I doubt that a hospital would cancel a clinical agreement over one violation, it is necessary for the nursing school to demonstrate to the hospital that they take the issue seriously in order to maintain a good relationship with the hospital. The school may elect to expel this student in order to retain a clinical site that serves dozens of other students.

Secondly, this student has demonstrated incredibly bad judgement. That she would take it upon herself to contact a family member without first discussing it with her instructor and/or the patient's nurse would make me wonder (as a clinical instructor) what else whe will do without first consulting an instructor or staff nurse. Will she ambulate an unstady patient on her own? Will she give medications without prior authorization? Will she make independent decisions regarding insulin and pain meds?

This student presents too much of a risk to allow her to continue in this clinical rotation.

ladyinred667 · Oct 18, 2006

Let's assume for a moment that this student made the phone call without the patient's consent.
I think we would all agree that constitutes a HIPAA violation. Then the question becomes: What should her punishment be? Is it too harsh to dismiss her from the class? In my opinion, no. Here's why:
Most nursing education programs rely on good-will agreements with local hospitals and healthcare facilities to provide adequate clinical sites for their students. Unlike the "olden days" when nursing schools were run by hospitals, most community college and university-based nursing programs do not own or control the hospitals where their clinicals take place. They are essentially "guests" of the hospitals that agree to provide clinical sites. That makes it possible for a hospital to terminate a clinical agreement with a nursing program if having the nursing students present creates too much of a "burden" or liability on the hosital. Having a student create a situation where the hospital could be liable for a federal violation, might make the hospital administration decide that it is no longer worth their while to welcome students from this particular nursing program. While I doubt that a hospital would cancel a clinical agreement over one violation, it is necessary for the nursing school to demonstrate to the hospital that they take the issue seriously in order to maintain a good relationship with the hospital. The school may elect to expel this student in order to retain a clinical site that serves dozens of other students.
Secondly, this student has demonstrated incredibly bad judgement. That she would take it upon herself to contact a family member without first discussing it with her instructor and/or the patient's nurse would make me wonder (as a clinical instructor) what else whe will do without first consulting an instructor or staff nurse. Will she ambulate an unstady patient on her own? Will she give medications without prior authorization? Will she make independent decisions regarding insulin and pain meds?
This student presents too much of a risk to allow her to continue in this clinical rotation.

:yeahthat:

salandry54 · Oct 18, 2006

DEFINITELY a violation!! But, she may be able to get around it if her step-mother will agree to sign a form stating the nursing student is a relation and had her permission to speak to outsiders about her condition. But, her nursing instructors will probably still look at her with disdain and judgment. She will probably be given a hard time for the rest of the semester.

ktwlpn, LPN · Oct 18, 2006

I may be thrown off this forum but in all honesty, some of your replies sound like she killed someone. Every place I've worked there are HIPPA violations going on all over the place involving staff talking about patients in non-confidential terms. There are far worse things being done every day.
She made a mistake. She probably thought more about informing her friends for their sake and HIPPA was secondary. She can review HIPPA and get on with her career. If it keeps happening then she should be removed.
Can you honestly say that if your best friend's mother was brought in to the hospital you wouldn't call your friend?

Why shouldn't she get thrown out of the program? I have seen an experienced rn and a unit clerk both loose their jobs in asimilar situations. She showed very bad judgement very early in the program-I am sure this is being considered as just a harbinger of the fun to come if she continues.They probably think she'll likely kill someone in clinical through ignorance... As for your question-NO-I would not take it upon myself to call..and I would stay as far away from that room during the rest of my clinical day as I possibly could.Afterwards I would present myself to the patient if I was close to her ..If not I would introduce myself to any other family as a close friend of her daughter and ask if there was anything they needed? I would maybe ask if the friend was on her way? Just to try to find out if she knew-maybe they don't want her called.You never know what kind of dysfuction is going on in any family...They could have had a major falling out that you know NOTHING nothing about...Bottom line-keep you mouth shut and stay away from friends,relatives,friends OF relatives,etc during your clinical (and on the job too)

peacefulpeach · Oct 18, 2006

I am surprised that both the hospital and school took such quick action. I am in agreement with the action because I know how many forms I signed prior to entering any clinical unit or hospital. I believe it is better for the student to learn this lesson now prior to having control over a client's records as a nurse. The hospital can still have financial ramifications due to the student's behavior as set forth by the HIPPA regulations.

The good news is that if the student is still apart of the program, perhaps the school has completed some more education on the issue of HIPPA and the student will learn that it is the staff's responsibility to protect records of any client.

I recently had a hospital stay at my own place of employment and most of the nursing staff didn't seem concerned about protecting my medical history.

dunkinut · Oct 18, 2006

i absolutely believe that this is a hippa violation, in every sense of the word. she is lucky to still be in the program, i wonder what their reasoning for that was. if i were the patient or family of the patient i would make darn sure she was not going to work in that facility again!

dunkinut · Oct 18, 2006

I posted a reply earlier to this post and was reading a few other posts as well. I was harsh in my statement that she should be removed from the program. I still stick with that conviction. Someone posted and asked if I myself would not do the same thing.....absolutely NOT! And...should it matter if it is going on in other clinics or medical settings? Again absolutely NOT! The question was asked did she kill anybody, if not, not an issue. What she did kill was not a patient, but the security of the healthcare profession in a whole and she should not be a part of the community for that breech. I would guarantee that is someone did it to her or her family it would be an issue, because when the shoe is on the other foot we always feel differently.

Marie_LPN, RN, LPN, RN · Oct 18, 2006

Originally Posted by ginger58
I may be thrown off this forum but in all honesty, some of your replies sound like she killed someone. Every place I've worked there are HIPPA violations going on all over the place involving staff talking about patients in non-confidential terms.

Doesn't mean it's ok to. :nono:

Can you honestly say that if your best friend's mother was brought in to the hospital you wouldn't call your friend?

Not unless Mom gave permission.

Sunni1 · Oct 18, 2006

Definite HIPPA Violation and I'm sure this was covered in the first part of any program that would be going to a hospital for clinicals.

RN BSN 2009 · Oct 18, 2006

wow.. i'm a nursing student and we've never signed anything for HIPPA. w e've talked about it a little bit, but nothing concrete or in detail

pagandeva2000, LPN · Oct 18, 2006

There is a huge ordeal in my clinical group. I have managed to stay out of it (thankfully I wasn't there when it happened and haven't been forced into getting involved), but was wondering what you guys thought about this.
The week before last in clinical, one of the students went to the nurses desk, called a friend, and told them that their step-mother was in the hospital with pneumonia and it looked pretty bad. The student did this in front of 2 students, a nurse (or more?), a doctor, and the unit secretary.
She was turned in for violating HIPAA and was told by the hospital that she was not welcome back. Our clinical instructor told her to go home. She was later notified by the department that she had been dropped from the program.
She appealed, of course, and continued to attend class.
Her clinical review was last Thursday and this morning she was in class for our test... so I guess she is still in..
what are your thoughts on this?

It was clearly a HIPPA violation, however, because I was not in class with this student, I can't say how clearly the message was brought across what HIPPA really is. And, I am one for second chances. Maybe this student learned from her mistake and will not do it again.