Help--HUGE A& P Dilemma

BabyLady, BSN, RN · Aug 23, 2009

hello everyone!
i need advice/suggestions. i am seriously considering nursing as a 2nd career. i have been told by family/friends and some even total strangers that i would make a great nurse...ie; very personable, caring/nurturing, patient, etc. which i think it would be a fascinating career--so many "avenues" one could go down. however...i have a huge dilemma w/the a&p courses one needs to take. i am a big animal lover (heck, family members started our local spca if that says something!) and i know in those classes that dissections are part of the class curriculum. i find this totally offensive. i am wondering if there is a way to "opt out" and do something alternative. i live in upstate ny and was wondering if anyone has been through this before and if so, suggestions. sadly enough, this kind of a "course" is the only thing holding me back.
thanks in advance!

if you are that against animals, then in all honesty, you should really not be a nurse at all.

seriously.

you won't pick up a drug in the hospital that has not been tested on animals. you will not perform a procedure that was not first tested on animals. you probably won't pick up a piece of equipment that was not tested on animals.

dissection is not part of every a&p course...b/c the animals are very expensive to obtain. mine, did not have one.

however, in all honestly, i firmly believe that it will have a negative impact to your learning. the animal is already dead. animals that are humanely euthanized for this purpose are obtained legally, and your refusal to participate isn't going to save the life of one of them.

i would also be sure, not to make the argument while wearing leather shoes and eating a hamburger....there is no difference.

LauraJane · Aug 23, 2009

I would encourage you to follow your heart. I understand your empathy toward animals, (I am a vegetarian), it is your empathy that will make you a great nurse! In the past 17 years nursing has become sooo technical and while that can be lifesaving, it also takes away the human touch of empathy on the journey to heal. Good Luck.:paw:

anewme1 · Aug 23, 2009

BabyLady,

While we are all entitled to our comments, I was asking for advice and not in the tone that was given. I did not say I was "against" animals by ANY means. I am very much FOR animals. All I was saying is that I was against slicing them open for a classroom purpose. I know the animal is already dead. It is the concept itself of the dissection. I was wondering if there were computer simulated classes available?

I am not a vegan so eating a hamburger would not be a problem. Wearing leather shoes would not be either. I do understand that testing on animals is common, but it is the "dissection" that I am asking about.

All I was inquiring about was was there a way to opt out or do an alternative project for this portion of the class. As you said, you didn't have to do a dissection. Obviously the classes are out there. I was looking for information on where there was an alternative from it since I do not believe you, as a nurse, are doing that work every day ie; dissecting animals and/or humans, are you?

anewme1 · Aug 23, 2009

LauraJane,

THANK YOU!! That's the reply/support someone needs when considering to return to school. If it wasn't for that one portion of the schooling, I really think I could do this. I know NYS is an "opt out" state as in one can do another project in replace of this portion of the class, but I don't know where to look for classes. Not sure where you are from, but would you have any suggestions? Thank you again for your kindness. It means a lot. Have a great day!

mmt4 · Aug 23, 2009

We had cadaver lab in my A&P class 15 yrs ago. The bodies were from people who agreed, prior to their death, to donate them to the university.

The medical school, of course, got most of the donations, but the undergrad lab had about 3 or 4 cadavers. The Prosection class (upper level Bio) did the dissecting and tagging, and we would be allowed into the lab to examine the cadavers. Not only did we not do any cutting, but we were admonished to be very very gentle and careful in the lab and handle only when necessary.

If you can find a college that has a medical school attached to it, you may have cadaver lab.

Alternately, see if your school will accept transfer credit from an online course. I am re-taking A&P at Clovis this semester, and it is distance. I don't know yet what the lab entails, but many people have taken it and had it accepted as pre-req for their nursing program.

PacoUSA, BSN, RN · Aug 23, 2009

Your best bet to avoid any type of live dissection of animals and still fulfill A&P is to take a class that is totally online, including the labs. Here are two popular ones that I am aware of that other pre-nursing students are taking:

http://www.ocean.edu/academics/programs_of_study/science/AP_Online.htm

I think you mentioned you're in NY, no? Here's one through SUNY:

http://sln.suny.edu/sln/public/slncatalog.nsf/c9eb56faddfb5ca88525755a004a6910/85256c3e00610b348525758b004b87d1?OpenDocument, although it's not clear whether this class' lab is online, I thought other people on Allnurses said it was.

I personally felt actual dissection was more beneficial learning for me as I needed something more visual and tangible (hands-on and the interaction with a lab partner too), which is why I opted not to take a totally online A&P (my lab was in person but my lectures were in fact online) - but that's me and I respect anyone who prefers not to perform them. You're right, dissection is not a nurse's usual task, and as long as you learn the material and master it, that's what matters. Good luck!

brittany_micah · Aug 23, 2009

The first time I took A&P we had to dissect cats. I've transferred schools and have to retake the class, but my current school has rat, cow, and other animals parts that must be dissected. I guess it depends on your professor, but my first professor gave us an option, if we didnt want to cut the cat or touch it that was fine, but we had to take the notes for our group & make labels. It was a group activity & as long as we participated somehow we passed the lab. I know that some schools offer animated dissections, I just dont know how realistic they are.

Sorry I can't offer any advice on which schools offer it online, but I hope you can find what you are looking for. Good Luck!

SaraFL · Aug 25, 2009

I actually think that BabyLady brought up some good points, so maybe you shouldn't be so hasty to take offense to them.

Anyway...

I think it will depend on your school and your teacher. My class we pretty much had to participate. The sheep heart didn't really bother me. The fetal pig bothered me a little but wasn't too bad. I was praying we wouldn't have to do a cat or dog (also big-time animal lover here, worked for a vet for 10 years) and luckily we didn't, although the prof did like to show us his dead cat in a bag - blech. The dissection did help me learn some things, but I understand the intense desire to not dissect.

I would maybe speak with the prof of the class you are considering taking and see if they would normally allow you to opt out or do another type of assignment. I really feel this class is better taken in person than online.

NewGradRN09 · Aug 25, 2009

I totally sympathize with you and I probably would have opted out of the dissection if my program allowed it!

However, if you HAVE to and you're willing, it really was an amazing experience. After you get over the initial shock of 'oh my gosh! what am i doing?!', it's soo interesting to see how the hip bone is really connected to the leg bone, etc..

BUT if you find a program where you can opt out, you should consider contacting a medical examiner's office and observing an autopsy. I had a great opportunity to witness autopsy's at a very busy, urban ME's office so the body's were in perfect condition (not deteriorated like in the elderly, etc.). While I obviously don't want any human to die tragically, it really allows a great learning opportunity because you see the way the body is supposed to be (and unfortunately, people are going to die regardless).

I don't think I'll ever forget holding every organ in the body. I now know exactly what they feel like (their weight, how sticky some are, the colour of them, etc.). It was truely sobering and just.. awesome.

Anyways, good luck! I hope you find a program where you can opt out. It looks like a previous poster gave you some good recommendations!

Take care :)

lpag789, BSN, RN · Aug 25, 2009

I understand how you feel exactly. In my classes, there were dissections, but we also had computer simulations. I chose to do the simulations and then was allowed to leave lab early. It only really hurt me a little bit on my Anatomy lab practicals because I hadn't participated in the dissection, but I still managed to make an A in the class. I would just talk to your professors ahead of time.

And the whole, "if you can't dissect animals, you can't be a nurse" is bull. My group members tried to tell me that and not only did they all end up having to retake the classes due to failing, they ended up not being able to handle human blood. To me, handling human blood is way more essential to nursing than dissecting dead animals.

Good luck and I hope it all works out for you.

LauraJane · Aug 25, 2009

Wow, this topic really gave some interesting feedback. I really feel drawn to clarify some things from my previous post. The message I was giving was: Follow your heart. If you really want to be a nurse, then dissection is one of the things in the learning process. In fact, I learned alot when I dissected the cat, the pig, the frog, the cow heart... All of it made me a better nurse in understanding the workings of the body. But, there is more to the role of nurse than treatment of the body. Along with the knowledge of the "machine" (body) empathy and compasssion is a needed component in the nurse as well. Peace. :bow: