If one were to read the Constitution one would realize that the Constitution does not grant anyone freedoms, liberties, or rights. The Constitution only protects freedoms, liberties, and rights from transgressions on part of the government. A right is something that is inherent to the individual, comes from that individual, and is maintained by the individual. You are born with such rights like the right to speak freely, the only thing that can be done to that right is to have it infringed. No one can grant a right to another, only limit or impede the exercise of that right.
Healthcare is a human invention that does not exist in the natural environment. Only through the work of others and through the taking of resources from one party and giving to another does healthcare exist. You cannot force someone to give effort and resources to another and call that a right. In the absence of human intervention the individual would live their lives and succumb to the natural forces which would act upon their bodies.
Do I think we should provide preventative care and basic primary care? Sure. Do I think that we can? Maybe. Do I think that healthcare is a basic human right? Absolutely not.
Rivernurse's post is why no matter how many people take advantage of the system, we still need A system., while a difficult journey, it is inspiring. thank you for sharing
Yep. I think of the people who come into the ER who really do abuse the system. But should we turn EVERYONE away just because of those individuals? No. And we don't even do that. So I don't see why having a universal healthcare plan, so that it can benefit those who truly want and need help to get to where they want to be, the ambitious and truly inspiring, is such a terrible idea. We can't save the world, but why not try to help those who'll truly use the help they get wisely?
The one thing I can honestly say i disagree with with Obamacare is making it mandatory for everyone to subscribe to it. I feel that should be optional.
First of all OP, talk about a hot topic! Nice choice
Second
The point is that universal coverage will cost us less than our current system. What is my evidence? Every other industrialized nation.
The evidence you are using is based on other countries' successes and failures. We have a completely different culture and I do not believe for one minute that a universal health care system will work in this country. I agree with the OP, a universal primary care system may work quite well, but not the rest. May sound inhumane, but I also believe it is the reality. Our VA hospitals are less efficient that other hospital systems and so is Medicare and Medicaid. We all know that the government run systems do not pay nearly as much as the private insurance and many health care institutions in this country would be bankrupt if they had to solely depend on Medicare type reimbursement.
After all, our own country cannot even keep up with the soldier's injuries in this country, how could it possibly provide us all with the healthcare we need. A story yesterday on CNN talked about a 2 year waiting list for disability compensation and how the government is no longer covering 'mild brain damage' after a combat injury. I am not talking concussion, I mean disability. The last people I want in charge of our health care system is the very people (congress) who won't give up there own.
Specializes in ICU, hospice, MS/tele, ED, corrections.
Ben- great points!
The real problem in this country is the prescription and medical supply companies that are charging ludacris amounts of money for the most basic things. Over $800 for a disposable forcept used in surgery? Why is this not enraging Americans?
I think you bring up an excellent point, which does not seem to be discussed enough. I personally don't know if "Universal Healthcare" is the answer, but, the corporate thieves who are running the current insurance, drug, and medical supply companies have to meet their bottom lines, which means they have to continually make a profit, but at who's expense? They are not bound by the Hippocratic Oath, nor the Nightingale Pledge. I think if somehow the greedy drug, medical supply, and insurance corporations were in some way held accountable, then things would change dramatically. I could be wrong; I am just expressing my opinion based what I know today. Lord knows I don't know everything!
I am an LPN going on only 3 years, and I have only worked in prison (I am looking for a different line of nursing) since I became an LPN. Inmates, at least in my state, New Mexico, have free access to any medical care that is deemed medically necessary. I see much of that inflated sense of entitlement that others have spoken of. It is very discouraging sometimes to know that my 72 year old Mother, who worked hard all of her life, has to wait months to get in to see her Primary Care Provider, yet, an inmate has to wait usually less than a week. As well, while I do now have health insurance (over the past 20+ years, most of the time I have not had insurance, as I could not afford it, unless an employer happened to provide it, but even then it has never been provided for free), I pay approx $50/month for a high-deductible plan which means nothing is actually covered until I fulfill the $1,300 deductible. Then my insurance kicks in. Under the recent changes in health care reform, my insurance company is required to provide preventative care free of charge, but anything else I am essentially still paying out of pocket for. Thank God I rarely need to go to the doctor!
Like I said before, I don't know if Universal Healthcare is the answer, but I don't think that leaving things the way they are is the answer, either.
Specializes in ICU, hospice, MS/tele, ED, corrections.
For those who have mentioned the insane cost of medical supplies, drugs and tests, this is not only due to corporate greed but it covers the cost for those who don't have insurance now. The plastic bedpan I am charged $800.00 for, covers the cost of the CT scan the homeless person with no insurance can't pay for. Universal Healthcare is supposed to help level that out...
...I am lucky enough to have a good job and I pay taxes. I would much prefer for my tax dollars to be invested in the healthcare of Americans rather than other things that are much more wasteful to me. My idea of the "other wasteful things" is probably for another thread, so I will just say, I would rather my tax dollars be spent on medical care for children than on more tanks.
Yes, I forgot about that...two years ago, I ended up in the ER because of a kidney infection I had stubbornly attempted to treat myself, because, in part, my employer at the time did not provide health insurance and I had been denied coverage when I sought to purchase my own health insurance because of a pre-existing condition. Anyways, unfortunately it wasn't until late at night when all the Urgent Care clinics were long closed for the day that the pain became unbearable, (which is why I did not wait until the morning to go to an Urgent Care Clinic, which, even paying out of pocket, would have been much cheaper), and therefore I had no choice but to go to the ER. Anyways, my bill came to $800 to wait in the ER for 7 hours and be seen by a doctor for 30 seconds for him to tell me what I already knew (okay, so they also drew my blood and tested my urine but still that's a mighty expensive bill!), and I am quite sure part of the reason it was so expensive (it took me almost 2 years to pay off that bill) was that my ability as a "middle class" individual to pay something was used to help off-set the losses that hospitals incur as a result of providing care to those who cannot pay anything at all, or who have medicare/medicaid, etc. which does not adequately reimburse healthcare costs.
Regarding the other part of your post that I quoted: Indeed, I agree, I would much rather my tax dollars be spent on healthcare than more tanks.
I'm still laughing at the idea that the Iliad and the Odyssey are "trash." This comment having probably been penned by someone who a) didn't read them, and b) routinely watches Survivor and/or Dancing with the Stars.
(yes, I've read them both, and no, I've never seen either of those fine quality programs)
I suggest you argue with the five Supreme Court justices who, rather than using auto insurance metaphors, actually consulted the Constitution, precedents, and case law. I invite you to read their opinion and then comment.
I also invite you to see the results of Romney's universal health care in Massachusetts, where practically everyone is now insured, and virtually no child is without coverage. See how many people are being dinged by the mandate. It's a non-issue. In any case, you should thank the Heritage Foundation for coming up with the health insurance mandate in the first place, after which it was a "well, of course!" idea among Republicans.
The problem for your perspective is that health care is a de facto right already. It may not have been true in the "good old days," but now it is considered unacceptable to leave someone to die by the side of the road. They will be brought to an emergency room and they will be treated. Who do you think pays for that? A magic fairy?
People not having health insurance is an expensive burden on our society that no other industrialized nation is saddled with.
I met a Canadian student a while ago who explained it thus: "Americans focus on 'me.' Canadians focus on 'we.' " Ironic given our great religiosity here, eh?
I love it..."given our religiosity" of course it is an idiocracy driven by myth and the belief in imaginary people touted by hypocrites that are more concerned with "me" rather than "we" based soley on fear...and lately xenophobia...a great observation.
I'm still laughing at the idea that the Iliad and the Odyssey are "trash." This comment having probably been penned by someone who a) didn't read them, and b) routinely watches Survivor and/or Dancing with the Stars.
(yes, I've read them both, and no, I've never seen either of those fine quality programs)
Forced to read them in High School...and reread them on my own with an open mind... still consider them what I said. Man's internal struggles to understand and accept the frailty of the human condition is a common (human) theme that can be readily explored in a myriad of modern, relevant and not-so-abhorently-tedious texts! Never watched the shows you referenced, but did like MASH and Klinger of course...
The Middle Class, is paying for medical care for everyone except themselves, and to which they have no access to.
Deport ALL illegal aliens, at THEIR EXPENSE, use that money for the Middle Class to obtain health insurance, improve our schools, balance the Federal Budget. REVOKE birthright citizenship, and end anchor babies.
Has anyone looked at what Illegal Aliens are costing this counry, in welfare benefite, food stamps, free K-12 Public education, medical care, etc? It is Criminal what this country is spending on these leeches.
And the American Citizens are suffering for it. There is PLENTY of money to adeaquately support and care for AMERICAN CITIZENS. The problem is how our politicians choose to spend it.
JMHO and my NY $0.02.
Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
Somewhere in the PACNW
Why yes, actually, many economists have looked and undocumented workers cost very little and save Americans a great deal of money elsewhere. In fact, undocumented workers pay more in sales, income and property taxes than most Americans (and far more than Mitt Romney, lol). If they can't file a return, they don't get a refund so everything taken out of their check based on the ss# faked by the employer that brings them to the US to avoid paying someone else a fair wage is lost to them (and retained to the government coffer). They pay property taxes via their rent, which accounts for their children in school, just as it would mine if they attended public school. Sales taxes speak for themselves, and account for their use of other local services. And, obviously, undocumented persons cannot collect aid to dependent children (sometimes erroneously called 'welfare' or food stamps. They can get free care in emergency departments but data demonstrates undocumented foreign patients account for less than 1% of ED visits. And surely we do not begrudge any human being health care in an emergency. Surely none of us has sunk that low.
One of the largest importers of undocumented workers are slaughter houses. If you ate beef, poultry or pork this week, you benefited from their underpaid labor (in likely unsafe conditions). Be prepared to see the price you paid for your meat quadruple if you deport the person who cut it. Another big importer of undocumented labor are produce farms. Experts have estimated that without them, $10 for a head of lettuce would not be out of the realm of possibility.
You may complain about what a burden you (incorrectly) think they are, but you need them. If you like, go ahead, deport them. But get ready to put your money where your mouth is. Literally.
Specializes in Oncology, Med/Surg, Hospice, Case Mgmt..
Why yes, actually, many economists have looked and undocumented workers cost very little and save Americans a great deal of money elsewhere. In fact, undocumented workers pay more in sales, income and property taxes than most Americans (and far more than Mitt Romney, lol). If they can't file a return, they don't get a refund so everything taken out of their check based on the ss# faked by the employer that brings them to the US to avoid paying someone else a fair wage is lost to them (and retained to the government coffer). They pay property taxes via their rent, which accounts for their children in school, just as it would mine if they attended public school. Sales taxes speak for themselves, and account for their use of other local services. And, obviously, undocumented persons cannot collect aid to dependent children (sometimes erroneously called 'welfare' or food stamps. They can get free care in emergency departments but data demonstrates undocumented foreign patients account for less than 1% of ED visits. And surely we do not begrudge any human being health care in an emergency. Surely none of us has sunk that low.
One of the largest importers of undocumented workers are slaughter houses. If you ate beef, poultry or pork this week, you benefited from their underpaid labor (in likely unsafe conditions). Be prepared to see the price you paid for your meat quadruple if you deport the person who cut it. Another big importer of undocumented labor are produce farms. Experts have estimated that without them, $10 for a head of lettuce would not be out of the realm of possibility.
You may complain about what a burden you (incorrectly) think they are, but you need them. If you like, go ahead, deport them. But get ready to put your money where your mouth is. Literally.
You are assuming that constitutional rights are equivalent to basic human rights, when that is not necessarily true. You are merely claiming that healthcare is not a constitutional right by claiming it's not in the constitution. The constitution does not include every human being, and is therefore not a basis for determining what are basic human rights. Basic Human Rights are those that apply to everyone simply for being a human, regardless of where they are in the world, nationally or internationally. For example, the "Right to Life" is a basic human right. If you want to argue if healthcare is a basic human right, you need to be able to discern if it is encompassed in one's right to life.
I think it should be, and nearly all respected international courts and organizations would agree with this, including the ICN. Take for example an American who is abroad and denied life saving healthcare. Such actions have come up in international courts and are seen as a violation of the "Right to Life." We (the US and many other countries as well) provide ER in order to fulfill the "Right to Life" as well. Now, you could claim that health promotion is not the same as life promotion, but that would be your prerogative. Imo, not promoting health is along the lines of risking someone's life. So I would agree with the others who say healthcare coincides with the Right to Life.
To furthermore show how providing healthcare promotes life, simply look at the mortality statistics on WHO of countries that provide healthcare vs those that don't. The US is the only developed nation that doesn't provide healthcare and the US also has some of the highest mortality rates, most of which are preventable via access to healthcare (such as infant mortality).
I think Healthcare is a basic human right in this civilized, wealthy country called the USA in the year 2012. So does most every state in the U.S. since unborn children and their mothers are offered free insurance and so are children under the age of 18 because they cannot provide for themselves. I also think that recent college graduates who were duped into believing going to college would actually benefit them who now cannot find a job should also be offered health care. ( I was one of them 4 years ago). I think it would be wrong to let people suffer when there are means to help them. Many countries are not as capitalistic, selfish, and ego-centric as the U.S. Europe has a better healthcare system than us because their culture is different. If only we had politicians that had sociology degrees instead of law degrees , and who didn't only got into politics to help themselves. If you feel some type of way because you work hard and you pay for your insurance and you don't agree with "universal healthcare" get over it, because there are many sick, dying people that can't help themselves because they are sick and dying.
Soliloquy, MSN, APRN, NP
457 Posts
Yep. I think of the people who come into the ER who really do abuse the system. But should we turn EVERYONE away just because of those individuals? No. And we don't even do that. So I don't see why having a universal healthcare plan, so that it can benefit those who truly want and need help to get to where they want to be, the ambitious and truly inspiring, is such a terrible idea. We can't save the world, but why not try to help those who'll truly use the help they get wisely?
The one thing I can honestly say i disagree with with Obamacare is making it mandatory for everyone to subscribe to it. I feel that should be optional.