Healthcare is NOT a basic human right.

[Asystole RN]

If one were to read the Constitution one would realize that the Constitution does not grant anyone freedoms, liberties, or rights. The Constitution only protects freedoms, liberties, and rights from transgressions on part of the government. A right is something that is inherent to the individual, comes from that individual, and is maintained by the individual. You are born with such rights like the right to speak freely, the only thing that can be done to that right is to have it infringed. No one can grant a right to another, only limit or impede the exercise of that right.

Healthcare is a human invention that does not exist in the natural environment. Only through the work of others and through the taking of resources from one party and giving to another does healthcare exist. You cannot force someone to give effort and resources to another and call that a right. In the absence of human intervention the individual would live their lives and succumb to the natural forces which would act upon their bodies.

Do I think we should provide preventative care and basic primary care? Sure. Do I think that we can? Maybe. Do I think that healthcare is a basic human right? Absolutely not.

[joanna73, BSN, RN]

The theme I'm hearing from those opposed to universal health care is this: We can't afford it, it won't work, why should I pay for someone else?People are making objections based on something they don't truly understand. The way universal health care works is not that complicated, really. In Canada, the Provincial and Federal governments allot a certain amount of funds for health care. The remaining money is paid through taxes, according to your income. While our system is far from perfect, it allows for everyone to have access to care. In contrast, when I'm hearing that many US citizens pay hundreds of dollars each month for insurance, AND are limited to certain hospitals and Doctors, how is that effective?

[37 °C]

The theme I'm hearing from those opposed to universal health care is this: We can't afford it, it won't work, why should I pay for someone else?

What they usually don't want to recognize that that we can't afford our current system, universal care works well or extremely well (compared to ours) in other industrialized nations, and we already are paying — a lot — for the uninsured. The result is more suffering than is necessary, and we pay more than is necessary for that result. It makes no logical sense.

There's a thread of pioneer independence that still runs through American culture. Many here, in their minds, imagine that they're living in the days of Lewis and Clark, and Daniel Boone. They refuse to recognize how interdependent we are. There is no way to go it completely alone in an urban environment. You can't conduct business with just yourself if you want to move beyond subsistence farming, and you cannot do business without an infrastructure. (How would you move your goods without freeways, harbors, highways, a water supply, and police and fire protection? Who will deal with the thieves and pirates?)

Why are still growing up as a country. Since many of us have never been to another country, much less overseas, we are certain that the U.S. is the best in every way, and that our social and economic mobility is unmatched. Little do they know....

Our measure of quality of life is sometimes a bit narrow.

[realmaninuniform]

Are you even a nurse? You seem more like a paid Obamabot than anything. I'm a numerous award winning nurse, and accomplished scholar in multiple fields of study. What are you other than a blind ideologue for idiocracy? Everything I said was based on personal experience, history, fact, and economic law. All you can muster in response is hurling insults such as bigotry? That is the first sign of defeat. When one can no longer debate factually, they result to childish insults. If socialized medicine is so great, than answer this question - why is it that the very wealthy, foreign dignitaries, and elite come to the US for health care, if it's so poor in quality?

And to further demonstrate the hypocrisy of your circular reasoning - "Frankly, I don't want to pay for your surgery, chemotherapy, and radiation because you decided to save some money and go without insurance. That is rather selfish." So it's ok to be "selfish" as long as you're the one doing it?! I think you need to put down the RHETORIC, which is the only thing you've ever posted, and read a book.

Here's a list to get you started: "Capitalism and Freedom" "Free to Choose" and "A Monetary History of the United States" all by Milton Friedman, "Liberty Defined" by Dr. Ron Paul, "Economics in One Lesson" by Henry Hazlitt, "America's Great Depression", "The Case Against the Fed" and "What has government done to our money?" all by Murray Rothbard. "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand, "Human Action" by Ludwig Von Mises, "The Road to Serfdom" by Hayek, and "Economic Sophisms", "The Law", and "What is Seen and What is Unseen" all by Bastiat.

And PS - If you're going to cite the VA as a shining example of premier health care, you need not post anymore. My grandfather is a Korean War veteran, and I hate that he goes to the VA. He is 82 years old. The VA insists on him having routine blood work for PSA... He had a complete prostatectomy over 20 years ago. That alone should signal no need for PSA testing, but it get's even better. The AMA no longer recommends testing for PSA in those 80 and older. So please, tell me more about how intuitive, and prudent government managed care really is!

[realmaninuniform]

And yes you did say the US has "free market health care". In addition to your again circular reasoning of " The unregulated market has widely been shown to be a disaster. Do I need to list examples?"

Yes, you do need to list some examples. I have a huge doubt based upon your previous posts that you know what a "free market" really is, and I would LOVE nothing more than to obliterate the false examples you will surely provide.

If you want universal health care, move to Europe, or go to medical school and start your own free clinic here in the US, then tell me about how glorious it is. Until then, just stop with the rhetoric. It's clear that you're a bleeding heart liberal, at least when it supports your own self interest anyways. Where are you on the wars Obama has started and exacerbated? How about the unlimited detention and state sanctioned murder of US citizens he has committed and supports? Where are you on monetary and fiscal policy? Bush's deficit spending was an abomination, even if it were only a fraction of Obama's, which is perfectly prudent? Get real.

[37 °C]

If you're such a scholar, then you know that your personal experience, anecdotes, and prejudices don't cut it. That is all you've presented. You still haven't put up a single reference to back up any of your opinions. It sounds like you haven't read a summary of the ACA, much less the whole law.

You can call me whatever you like — I really don't care — but present some facts rather than abstract opinions about abstract ideas.

I suggest you look up the word "bigotry." Your bigotry is evidenced by your trashing of those who need assistance as welfare queens with iPhones. I suggest you step out of your emergency room and see what actually happens outside. I am not a bigot because I call you on your unsupported arguments.

Seriously, you call yourself a scholar in many fields? Get off your high horse and back up your statements.

I am involved in research, so I know a thing or two about what evidence is. Citing Ayn Rand (the person, not even her fictional works) does not cut it.

And yet you post another anecdote, which is supposed to show that the VA system is bad. I suggest you read a little and get a handle on the big picture. Take a look at the statistics. There are a lot of them. Your anecdotes are worthless, and show that you have no real argument.

So: Do you have any cost figures with respect to our current healthcare system, the post-ACA-implementation system, and that of other countries? At this point, do you recognize that there are other countries, and that they have healthcare systems? There is no way you can deny that many of them are better than ours in terms of per capita cost, accessibility, and outcomes. I presume you saw the infant mortality numbers, above, compiled by our own CIA. Do you think you can just make believe that those countries don't exist?

I'm a numerous award winning nurse, and accomplished scholar in multiple fields of study.

Wow. Just...wow. Apparently those fields of study don't involve backing up assertions with data other than anecdotal evidence. I don't think you're an award-winning economist, or a philosophy professor.

If you're not going to reply to my corrections of your erroneous facts, but are going to attack me instead, you're wasting your time. As I said, I don't care if you attack me, but answering an argument with an attack doesn't cast your post in a very good light.

[joanna73, BSN, RN]

People do travel to the US for health care. The elites also travel to Europe and Canada for various health care needs, outside of their own country, depending on the nature of those needs. I'm sure you're not that naïve...to think that the US has the entire monopoly on health care.

[realmaninuniform]

Pretty sure I paraphrased an entire essay written by a Nobel Prize winning Economist... If that's not citing a source I don't know what is. You have yet to cite anything at all. As for the ACA, no, I have not read it in it's entirety. It is several thousand pages of legal jargon that I highly doubt you have read either. I have however read several provisions of the bill including those that mandate implanted RFID chips and prohibit organic gardening on private property for personal use.

As for replying to your "corrections" you've made none. I've never "attacked" you either. You called me a bigot. I simply stated that resorting to name calling rather than debating someone intellectually, with ACTUAL facts, not rhetoric, is a sign of defeat.

And I quote - "answering an argument with an attack doesn't cast your post in a very good light." Way to reiterate my point. I never attacked you. You called me a bigot. I simply questioned your credentials, which clearly do not exist, if all you can respond with is try to twist MY point to fit your agenda, again, you've lost.

Like I said before, turn of the TV, and read some credible works, and I'm not talking about editorials in left leaning newspapers....

[realmaninuniform]

And you can cite all the *supposed* statistics you want from these foreign countries on infant mortality rate, cost per capita, etc. etc. The examples you've provided are laughable at best. I work with a nurse who came from the eastern bloc. She has said they are decades behind us in medical care despite being socialized, yet they have a lower infant mortality rate? I don't think so. The data you are referring to is so skewed it's pathetic. John Stossel did a FANTASTIC expose on socialized medicine in Cuba. He showed how the care really isn't as great as they say it is,and is really based on a class system. And the statistics have variables built in to boost the numbers to make them look good. It's on youtube, you should watch it.

[realmaninuniform]

And now I'm prejudice AND a bigot. Yet I'm the one hurling insults and relying on "abstract opinions and ideas." Wow.

Never once did I "cite" Ayn Rand, rather I listed her in a reading list you obviously are in dire need of reading. Perhaps it's time you "present some facts" with sources, to back up your own ignorance. Also, you claim to be in the field of research? You clearly have yet to do any other than what serves your own bias. None the less this is a thread for NURSES. You still never answered my initial question - are you even a nurse?

[cdsga]

I would think that infant mortality rate would be easy to fix in a country the size of CUBA. Please. When you are looking at a country the size of the USA-it would probably be best to compare a country of comparable size and make up.

I really am not impressed with the urgency of the healthcare reform idea-I know I pass over dead bodies as I leave my house everyday from those with no access to care. Bodies are piling up outside my local hospital because they won't see them.

I think the thread here has gotten a little out of hand.

Have some rational thoughts.

You can't turn people away from ANY ER-gov't funded or not.

[37 °C]

I would think that infant mortality rate would be easy to fix in a country the size of CUBA. Please. When you are looking at a country the size of the USA-it would probably be best to compare a country of comparable size and make up.

I really am not impressed with the urgency of the healthcare reform idea-I know I pass over dead bodies as I leave my house everyday from those with no access to care. Bodies are piling up outside my local hospital because they won't see them.

I think the thread here has gotten a little out of hand.

Have some rational thoughts.

You can't turn people away from ANY ER-gov't funded or not.

Please go back to page 18 and look at the list. There are 48 countries ahead of the U.S., among them Cuba, Germany, France, Spain, and Canada. Can you explain how the size of the country itself causes our infant mortality rate to be higher (in some cases, a lot higher) than that of so many other countries?

How about if we compare every other industrialized countries? Let's see you find one that spends what we spend per capita, has as poor outcomes, and has as poor access. You will find that, in general, they spend half per capita what we do, and their results range from better to far better.

No, you don't walk over dead bodies, first of all, because you don't live in the "right" neighborhood, but also because, by federal legislation, ERs have to at least stabilize all unstable patients that present themselves. Guess what happened before that law was passed? People were turned away from ERs and did die in the streets. Where else would they die? At the Ritz?

You can see what our health care costs per capita if you choose to. You can see the trend. Sometimes it flattens out for a bit, but the trend is up, up, up as a percentage of GDP. If not now, then when? When do you think it would be a good time for health care reform?

It's as if the building you live in has a leaky roof, but your apartment is not getting rained on, so to you, fixing the roof is not a priority. That is shortsighted.

[37 °C]

And now I'm prejudice AND a bigot. Yet I'm the one hurling insults and relying on "abstract opinions and ideas." Wow.

Never once did I "cite" Ayn Rand, rather I listed her in a reading list you obviously are in dire need of reading. Perhaps it's time you "present some facts" with sources, to back up your own ignorance. Also, you claim to be in the field of research? You clearly have yet to do any other than what serves your own bias. None the less this is a thread for NURSES. You still never answered my initial question - are you even a nurse?

No, my scholarly friend, you are prejudiced. You said this:

The majority of people who cannot "afford" health care now, already receive free care through medicaid, strange though, that they can afford iPhones, manicured nails, hair, nice vehicles, nice clothes, etc.

Do you deny saying that? What percentage of the uninsured do you think are the working poor, who can't qualify for Medicaid? As soon as you have a McJob, you're on your own. You are a bigot because you think that most of the poor are living in the lap of luxury, with all kinds of fancy luxuries. That mindset goes back to Reagan and his story about the Cadillac-driving welfare queen-a person, it turned out, who didn't actually exist.

That's right. You did not cite Ayn Rand. You simply listed her book, a work of fiction, for no constructive reason. You didn't explain how it's germane to the argument. I don't know why you bothered. It's clear from what you've said that you subscribe to her "me first; everyone else can fight over the scraps" philosophy. The problem for you and Ayn is that we've already decided, as a society and through federal legislation, that people will not be turned away from emergency rooms, even if they have no insurance or money. That ship has already sailed.

Now tell me: What makes a nurse an expert in health care economics? Patients are triaged, intubated, and splinted. Where does the health care economic policy come into play? You might as well be a carpenter or an airline pilot.

You have lots of libertarian economic ideology, but no backed up facts. As someone said, The plural of anecdotes is not data. Your ideology does not replace data, and if you were to examine how health care is done in other industrialized countries, your ideology would short-circuit.

You can't point to a single Ayn Rand-style Shangri-la anywhere in the world. Is Somalia the best you have? Get real. When economics becomes religion, no good comes of it, as Alan Greenspan learned-and admitted, before Congress.