Half of the class fails

suzw · Jun 3, 2015

Dang. I don't know if my area is more competitive than most or what, but my program admits the top 40 TEAS scores, out of 200-250 of the highest GPAs. Out of 40, we only lost 3 (2 were actually borderline passing but dropped out for personal reasons) and we graduate next week. Minimum average test score to pass is 80% and typical NCLEX first time pass rate is around 95%. We do have mostly awesome instructors though, so maybe that's what makes the difference. :up:

jhoilman · Jun 3, 2015

Remember, you are in control of your own destiny. Like Ben Franklin said "If you fail to plan you are planning to fail". Focus on your studies, focus on what you can control. Make sure you are putting in 110% of the effort. See yourself through to the finish line.

Aliareza, BSN · Jun 4, 2015

That's exactly my point! My point is that 30 out of 52 students failed (so as you can see more Than half) failed one class.

I think in any program, there's that professor. I know in mine, it was the peds professor. Made the class way more difficult than it had to be, was incredibly meticulous about every single little detail, and would blame us if the tests seemed out of nowhere even for those who normally made A's in classes and were anal about their studying. Like, this person straight-up told us that on two of the five tests, most people in prior semesters failed. I'd think that'd signal to a prof that something needs to be changed, but this teacher wasn't hearing any criticisms of the incredibly tight ship that was run .

With that said, everybody hated that prof. When I graduated, there were several people who had failed peds and not med-surg who had to wait a semester and retake it. And unsurprisingly, all of them disliked the prof. I did as well, for different reasons. I feel like if people failed, it was because they didn't put enough effort into the tests that were reasonable. Passing was quite doable -- I just didn't expect peds to be harder than Med Surg III was when OB was literally a cake walk despite being completely new material.

I put a lot of stock into what Grn Tea said though -- third semester nursing school was the hardest thing I'd ever done academically. And then I got to fourth semester and it was misery the whole time. There was no way for those squeaking by on third semester to keep afloat for fourth. Most of the strugglers managed to pass the classes, but didn't pass their exit HESI and had to do remediation anyway :x. Failing is always disappointing, but those who do fail need the extra time to take it in. Giving them little boosts so that they can make it by on the skin of their teeth doesn't help anyone.

morte, LPN, LVN · Jun 4, 2015

you can't take a numeric score from one school and compare it to numeric score at another.

The test scores of 71 tell me everyone in your class would have failed my school. A score of 77 or higher was required to remain. To my knowledge, everyone who started the program remained to graduate. It was tough, but with the exception of 1 student, we all passed the NCLEX on the first try, most with 75 questions.

nurseprnRN, BSN, RN · Jun 4, 2015

Faculty in schools of nursing face this problem: If a program is too strict on who progresses into nursing, it may be perceived as not giving certain groups a chance. We also know that if our NCLEX pass rates go below a certain point, the entire program may be put on suspension.
This is a huge dilemma. We WANT students from all backgrounds to make it as nurses, but for some this is a HUGE struggle because they had such a weak basic education. We also get transfer students who took prereqs at community colleges that gave them a good grade (so they wouldn't lose their financial aid status) even though they did not learn nearly enough to handle pharm and patho. That student now may have an inflated sense of their ability, and are angry at me for not lowering the pass threshhold.
I have had several students say to me "But I worked so hard." Yes, they did, but they did not master the course content or achieve the same standard as their peers. They also do not know enough to have good odds of passing NCLEX. I personally think it is unethical to pass them along (and keep taking their money) if their is little chance they will make it in the end. I also think it is unfair to water down the value of someone else's A by making it easier for others who did not put as much into the class to pass.
If you are one of the weaker students, start reading things that challenge you ahead of time (try the NY Times). Every time you run across a new word that you do not know, immediately look it up, then use it. Ask your HS teachers or someone outside your family to give you honest feedback on your writing skills, grammar, spelling, etc., then use the many free resources at your school and online to get better. Go Khan academy and take free 8th grade math tests. If you cannot easily pass it, use the many FREE resources on the web and your program's remediation program to get to at least that level.
Too many persons going into nursing (and the public in general) think that to be a nurse, you just need to be a nice person with a kind heart and some common sense. That could not be further from the truth. To care for today's really sick patients, you need a strong background in science, at least soild high school level math skills, the ability to explain your ideas in writing without numerous errors, an ability to read and understand college level material, understand basic statistics, and more. You also need strong critical thinking skills and the ability to go beyond memorization to use information and ideas to solve real problems. Nursing is application, application, application. It also requires knowing how to prioritize and to select the best approach among several options. It is not at all simple.
I'll be honest here: As one of the few remaining jobs with decent pay that cannot be sent to Mexico or China, everyone and their uncle wants to be nurse. That's why programs can accept hundreds into earlier level course. They know many won't make it, but the $$ support the rest of the program to do this. If you really want to be a nurse, stop spending time complaining about high fail rates. Instead, do whatever it takes to learn how to succeed.
I want to point out two key factors in overcoming disadvantages. Those who project the reasons for their bad results onto others (the faculty are too tough) are less likely to make it, so stop blaming others, right now. If instead you look inside yourself and say "What could I have done better to master this?" Or, "I wonder what so and so does to get good grades." are able to figure out how to get better. Likewise, people who believe that we each only have a fixed amount of smarts, or math ability, or writing skills, or whatever are far less likely to succeed. Just think about your cooking or athletic skills, or other abilities: how did you get better? With practice, by watching others who could do it well, with close attention to details, by asking questions, and by learning from your mistakes. Your ability to learn new things is inside you, but your self-talk matters, and can cancel it out by saying "The class wasn't fair. They're just out to fail us and take our money." while ignoring the fact that some people did pass. If you instead say to yourself, "I can and will get better at this. I just have to work harder than most people because English is not my first language, or my grade school teachers did make sure I understood this well, so I need to learn it now." you will find a way. It comes down to believing that you can get better, and then finding the tools and help to get there.
As a nursing professor, I care deeply about my students; this is widely known. I am accessible and a and approachable. Yet I still have students who don't come talk to me and don't show when I offer to meet with them to figure out how they can do better. Out of everyone I try to send to the math tutors, at most half go, even when they have scarily abysmal math assessment scores. If I do my part, why blame me for your poor outcomes? If I set up homework that if done, makes it very likely that if combined with at least mediocre test scores, you will still get a C, am I to blame if you don't do it?
Some students are totally unrealistic about how many hours they work. And while yes, I know a lot of people cannot avoid working, why not consider making it easier to work less by 1) not getting into debt (sell newer car, pay off loan, get an older car that will last 3 years); 2) cut expenses every way possible; 3) ask family to subsidize you in exchange for cleaning for them, mowing lawn, etc.
The key metric used to evaluate faculty are the surveys. If faculty do not meet a certain level, they will have to explain themselves, and if the trend does not reverse in 6-9 months, they will not be renewed. So not letting the program know about bad teaching is a bad idea. Yes, there are some lousy teachers out there; the good faculty need YOUR help in getting rid of them. (We risk being labeled uncollegial when we confront them directly, and have to have decent working relationships with them when we serve on committees, etc. Some will even get revenge for negative peer ratings by downrating you on your next review.) You have much more power to do something about them than I have! Deans may know something is wrong, but without evidence may hang on to them out of fear of a lawsuit and because finding a replacement may not be easy.
But please also recognize the effective faculty and give them credit. Please keep in mind that they do work they often are not paid for (writing recommendations to help you get a job, etc., putting comments in papers to help you down the line, improving and updating courses, etc.) And, they make at least $20,000 less per year than they would as advanced practice nurses. Many do it for the same reasons I do: to give back, and out of love for the students and nursing. Please be kind to good faculty.

I don't usually reqoute an entire long post but this one is so damn good it bears not only repeating but printing out and putting up under glass in every nursing school in the country. I couldn't have said it better myself. Awesome, awesome, awesome.

Serial whiners and marginal passers, take note and take to heart. And put it up next to your mirrors and read it every day. This is the way to succeed. Do you really want to? Do you really think you have what it takes? Do you really believe, "I'll do anything to be a nurse!"? Ok. Now here's your chance. Do it.

Natasha A., CNA, LVN · Jun 4, 2015

Faculty in schools of nursing face this problem: If a program is too strict on who progresses into nursing, it may be perceived as not giving certain groups a chance. We also know that if our NCLEX pass rates go below a certain point, the entire program may be put on suspension.
This is a huge dilemma. We WANT students from all backgrounds to make it as nurses, but for some this is a HUGE struggle because they had such a weak basic education. We also get transfer students who took prereqs at community colleges that gave them a good grade (so they wouldn't lose their financial aid status) even though they did not learn nearly enough to handle pharm and patho. That student now may have an inflated sense of their ability, and are angry at me for not lowering the pass threshhold.
I have had several students say to me "But I worked so hard." Yes, they did, but they did not master the course content or achieve the same standard as their peers. They also do not know enough to have good odds of passing NCLEX. I personally think it is unethical to pass them along (and keep taking their money) if their is little chance they will make it in the end. I also think it is unfair to water down the value of someone else's A by making it easier for others who did not put as much into the class to pass.
If you are one of the weaker students, start reading things that challenge you ahead of time (try the NY Times). Every time you run across a new word that you do not know, immediately look it up, then use it. Ask your HS teachers or someone outside your family to give you honest feedback on your writing skills, grammar, spelling, etc., then use the many free resources at your school and online to get better. Go Khan academy and take free 8th grade math tests. If you cannot easily pass it, use the many FREE resources on the web and your program's remediation program to get to at least that level.
Too many persons going into nursing (and the public in general) think that to be a nurse, you just need to be a nice person with a kind heart and some common sense. That could not be further from the truth. To care for today's really sick patients, you need a strong background in science, at least soild high school level math skills, the ability to explain your ideas in writing without numerous errors, an ability to read and understand college level material, understand basic statistics, and more. You also need strong critical thinking skills and the ability to go beyond memorization to use information and ideas to solve real problems. Nursing is application, application, application. It also requires knowing how to prioritize and to select the best approach among several options. It is not at all simple.
I'll be honest here: As one of the few remaining jobs with decent pay that cannot be sent to Mexico or China, everyone and their uncle wants to be nurse. That's why programs can accept hundreds into earlier level course. They know many won't make it, but the $$ support the rest of the program to do this. If you really want to be a nurse, stop spending time complaining about high fail rates. Instead, do whatever it takes to learn how to succeed.
I want to point out two key factors in overcoming disadvantages. Those who project the reasons for their bad results onto others (the faculty are too tough) are less likely to make it, so stop blaming others, right now. If instead you look inside yourself and say "What could I have done better to master this?" Or, "I wonder what so and so does to get good grades." are able to figure out how to get better. Likewise, people who believe that we each only have a fixed amount of smarts, or math ability, or writing skills, or whatever are far less likely to succeed. Just think about your cooking or athletic skills, or other abilities: how did you get better? With practice, by watching others who could do it well, with close attention to details, by asking questions, and by learning from your mistakes. Your ability to learn new things is inside you, but your self-talk matters, and can cancel it out by saying "The class wasn't fair. They're just out to fail us and take our money." while ignoring the fact that some people did pass. If you instead say to yourself, "I can and will get better at this. I just have to work harder than most people because English is not my first language, or my grade school teachers did make sure I understood this well, so I need to learn it now." you will find a way. It comes down to believing that you can get better, and then finding the tools and help to get there.
As a nursing professor, I care deeply about my students; this is widely known. I am accessible and a and approachable. Yet I still have students who don't come talk to me and don't show when I offer to meet with them to figure out how they can do better. Out of everyone I try to send to the math tutors, at most half go, even when they have scarily abysmal math assessment scores. If I do my part, why blame me for your poor outcomes? If I set up homework that if done, makes it very likely that if combined with at least mediocre test scores, you will still get a C, am I to blame if you don't do it?
Some students are totally unrealistic about how many hours they work. And while yes, I know a lot of people cannot avoid working, why not consider making it easier to work less by 1) not getting into debt (sell newer car, pay off loan, get an older car that will last 3 years); 2) cut expenses every way possible; 3) ask family to subsidize you in exchange for cleaning for them, mowing lawn, etc.
The key metric used to evaluate faculty are the surveys. If faculty do not meet a certain level, they will have to explain themselves, and if the trend does not reverse in 6-9 months, they will not be renewed. So not letting the program know about bad teaching is a bad idea. Yes, there are some lousy teachers out there; the good faculty need YOUR help in getting rid of them. (We risk being labeled uncollegial when we confront them directly, and have to have decent working relationships with them when we serve on committees, etc. Some will even get revenge for negative peer ratings by downrating you on your next review.) You have much more power to do something about them than I have! Deans may know something is wrong, but without evidence may hang on to them out of fear of a lawsuit and because finding a replacement may not be easy.
But please also recognize the effective faculty and give them credit. Please keep in mind that they do work they often are not paid for (writing recommendations to help you get a job, etc., putting comments in papers to help you down the line, improving and updating courses, etc.) And, they make at least $20,000 less per year than they would as advanced practice nurses. Many do it for the same reasons I do: to give back, and out of love for the students and nursing. Please be kind to good faculty.

Thank you for sharing your honest advice. I have owned up to my mistakes and realize that I need additional help with how to take nursing exams and decided to get a tutor for one-on-one feedback and like you had mention..to mirror and follow how others who have already succeeded :) Thank you!!

ladyjo · Jun 4, 2015

The requirements to accept students based on anything other than their proven qualifications is such a shame. I did 3 years of prereqs with many, many pre-nursing students who were motivated by getting through the class as easily as possible with the minimum grade required for their program. Lottery systems at local JCs--where many of us end up applying because it is so difficult to get into a state program--are very frustrating for those of us with 4.0s, who have high TEAS test scores, and are very ready to succeed in a program. To accept someone with lower grades and scores, I believe, to be educated for a career as critically important to human health is very hard to excuse. I am a medical malpractice investigator who spends all day looking at cases that hinge upon common-sense mistakes and lack-of-critical-thinking-skills by nurses. Why aren't standards, even if for legal/insurance/risk management purposes, as high as those to get into a competitive undergraduate college?

Hollyhocks720, MSN, NP · Jun 4, 2015

Let's face it. Most nursing instructors are witches with a capital B. They have this mentality that if everyone passes their classes, then their program must be too easy. Most are looking tio fail x number of students. My advice to anyone presently going through nursing school is this. Keep in mind these people have ultimate power over you in that they are gate keepers who have the ability to pass or fail you. Many of them relish in the power trip of this role. Don't do anything to draw their attention, because they gossip about their students to other nursing instructors. It is very unprofessional and unethical, and it scares me to think that some of these people actually had control over their patient's safety and well being at the hospital or nursing home. Never disagree with your instructor. I remember a young gal embarassed her instructor when she pointed out that the instructor told the class something erroneous. Yes, the student got her 10 seconds of fame but they followed her around in the clinicals and gave her a hard time when she did her check offs, stressing her out to the point where she dropped out of the program. Some of them are just looking for an excuse to fail a certain number of students. Don't give them a reason or excuse. If that instructor just reads from the book and bores the daylights out of you, still show up for her class and drink lots of coffee if you think you will fall asleep, because that will draw their attention as well. If that person drives you nuts and you can't stand the site of her, never show it, again because they have the power to pass or fail you. If they set out to chase you out, they will come after you when you are doing your clinical rotations or your skills check offs.

This matches my experience. Only worse - many students who actively kissed butts got a lot of passes....including whispered help during procedure checkouts. There is nothing about nursing that makes it NECCESSARY for instructors to be mean or on power trips.

And as far as half or more of students failing, or " weeding out" so to speak - that is a very unethical practice for any school. They had to do a pi$$ poor job of admissions if half fail. It's a very lazy and unethical way to ensure a high nclex rate for the institution and only steals time, money, and morale from students. I believe in minimal legislation but feel nursing school is highly abusive to students and more legislation is needed in this area. Mean teachers lead to mean students AND EVENTUALLY, mean nurses. Are those the kind of people you want taking care of you?

Hollyhocks720, MSN, NP · Jun 4, 2015

I'm not even sure how you can come to these conclusions. Saying that instructors set out to fail students? Not much job security there.
Don't disagree with your instructors? Conversing, questioning and sometimes debating information is expected. It's how we learn.
There should be respect and civility but never disagreeing? Not possible.
I can tell you for certain that the students who failed out of the BSN program I am in either did not put the effort into their work and study time or simply were not ready to be in a serious program.
You can not put your social life ahead of school work and expect to pass.
You also will not be passed if you don't have a basic understanding of the content. It's pretty simple.

I have to defend the original post - while you are theoretically correct the original poster experience is similar to mine. Our instructors at my first school hated questions. This is because they didn't appear to know their material. Yes ideally questions are good but nursing instructors are not professors. I question what abbout an MSN qualifies them to teach.

Hollyhocks720, MSN, NP · Jun 4, 2015

I'm not even sure how you can come to these conclusions. Saying that instructors set out to fail students? Not much job security there.
Don't disagree with your instructors? Conversing, questioning and sometimes debating information is expected. It's how we learn.
There should be respect and civility but never disagreeing? Not possible.
I can tell you for certain that the students who failed out of the BSN program I am in either did not put the effort into their work and study time or simply were not ready to be in a serious program.
You can not put your social life ahead of school work and expect to pass.
You also will not be passed if you don't have a basic understanding of the content. It's pretty simple.

also when half the students are failing and many of those are repeating - it's pretty good job security for the instructors and a pretty good scam for the institution.

Hollyhocks720, MSN, NP · Jun 4, 2015

You are paying for your education. Take control of it! If an instructor is not teaching, it is your job to let the director of the program know! There is a chain of command to let them know about a problem like this. I had the same issue in my program. We had a student flat out drop because am instructor was not teaching. And a few more have failed out because of that instructor. Do not let instructors like this get away with it!

Did that and paid the price. They all band together. And if the instructors at my first school were held to the same high standards students are held to - there probably would be fewer complaints and fails.

OzlemBSN(ANP2b) · Jun 6, 2015

We started out with 27 high school students. Everything was good first year, taking a&p and some other easy prerequisites. We only have 2 who failed. I knew they were not nursing material :) then sophomore year hit and we got our first nursing based classes with tests that had three right choices and we had to pick the best. For some it clicked for rest it didn't after that third semester, we continued with 7 students. It was health assessment that killed the rest. The class was hard and fully relied on memorization and critical thinking. And some of the students couldn't grasp it and it was too late for them. 9 of us graduated on time in 20014. The rest of our class retook the class and graduated 2015. Lost a year. Those were hardest and most stressful times of my life

Ozlem RN-BSN (ANP '18)