Difference bet 2 yr and 4yr school

suzy253, RN · Jan 7, 2006

Can you please post a source for this "information"?
I did a research paper on this subject last year. Just search around on the CINAHL style databases out there.
g

I thought BSN's were into researching. Well, this lowly 3-year diploma student knows that it was originally printed in JAMA (2003) and follow up reports state that this study is fatally flawed. JAMA = Journal of the American Medical Association.

suzy253, RN · Jan 7, 2006

I was in clinical this week with an ADN I highly respect, but a patient asked for some grahm crackers and she gave them to him despite the glucose stick he just had an hour earlier that gave a reading of over 350. I know, 'cause I charted it. Well...?
g

Well? Well, I was in clinical my freshman year with students from a BSN program sharing the clinical site--fairly early on in their clinical rotation after having been in the program for 2 years already---

anyway, i was preparing to insert a foley catheter in a female patient with the BSN student observing with the staff RN as well. After asking several questions about the technique, the BSN student stated she wasn't aware of sterile technique, etc. etc. but that she was aware of the theory behind it."

Well indeed (?)

MJJFan1, BSN, RN · Jan 8, 2006

Why are you all bashing each other? Who cares whether or not you or whoever goes to the two year or four year. None of you pay each others bills and none of you are certified guidance counselor to whomever posted this thread. Why such bigoted opinions? I've applied to a four year program and that's because I don't want to waist much time with going to school. I got side tracked in the Marine Corps for eight years. But I also decided that hey, the Community College is 30 minutes away (as opposed to 1 hr) and becuase I have the prerequisites for both programs, why not do the 2 year? I'll need those 117 credit hours when applying to the online BSN at ECU. So am I wrong for this decision? acccording to a couple of you, I am wrong for this decision just because it's an ADN program. I've taken all of the statistics, psychology, research and reporting, sociology, chemistry, micro, ethics, and everything else required for a BSN program so in all actuality according to you BSN guys, I can sit at a desk all day and research better than the ADN student. I believe I could have researched better than any student without those classes. I had experience with that sort of thing before applying to any program. I was a Marine, and that required much research especially when you have to research local customs of Iraqi and Afghani citizens so that you can fit in without being caught. Especially when you have to learn to apply all sorts of first aid to the man who has just been shot dead lying next to you with his intestines falling out onto the ground. My job was called INTELLIEGENCE. But I'm a bigot you say. Am I a bigot for wanting to spend less time driving to school? Am I a bigot for wanting to save money rather than shelling it out on $2.56/gallon gas every 2 days? :nono:

Butterflybee · Jan 8, 2006

I am the original poster. What I was wondering and have since been answered was jobwise what the difference was and how much of a difference it made. Also, I was wondering as far as classes, what the difference was. Obviously, the 4 yr would take more classes but I was wondering in what. I think this was a very informative thread that could help someone decide which path they would like to choose or if in the long run they would go back for the BSN. Thank all of you for sharing your thoughts. You guys are really great. :)

Gompers, BSN, RN · Jan 8, 2006

I am the original poster. What I was wondering and have since been answered was jobwise what the difference was and how much of a difference it made. Also, I was wondering as far as classes, what the difference was. Obviously, the 4 yr would take more classes but I was wondering in what. I think this was a very informative thread that could help someone decide which path they would like to choose or if in the long run they would go back for the BSN. Thank all of you for sharing your thoughts. You guys are really great. :)

Difference jobwise: Very little. Both are RNs and have the same opportunities and types of assignments. Some hospitals pay a dollar or two more per hour if you have your BSN as opposed to an ADN. Some hospitals only hire BSNs into ICU positions, but not always. BSNs will have more opportunity to raise up and become managers someday. But for a new grad, starting out on a floor - VERY little difference between BSN and ADN.

Difference schoolwise: Very similar science and nursing classes. The ADN will be much more science-nursing focused. The BSN will have you taking almost exclusively nursing classes junior and senior year, with your freshman and sophomore year consisting of a liberal arts education, with all that history, philosophy, psychology, literature, etc. that comes with it. Yeah, some people hate it because "what does that have to do with nursing" but that's what a bachelor's degree is about - a very well-rounded education. And THAT's the biggest difference, to me, between a BSN and an ADN.

mstigerlily · Jan 8, 2006

I agree. I have a BA in Psychology and an ADN in Nursing. I am now completing my BSN online and I have noticed that we have WAY more papers at the bachelor's level. My community college is one of the finest in So. Cal, their nursing program has been around since the 50's and the NCLEX pass rate is near 100% every year. Still, the one or two papers we had each semester were a huge deal with little "prep seminars" on how to do them, detailed instructions on the APA format, lists of websites where we can find help, meetings with instructors to preview the paper before we turned it in, etc.

In my BSN courses (and in the BA I earned beforehand), we do papers as a matter of course they are not a huge deal it is EXPECTED that we know how to do them and if not, will find the resources to do so. Community College is somewhere between high school and a 4 yr university. You will find instructors who still take attendance and count off points if you are absent. They make themselves very available to the student with office hours and e-mails. University professors may have grad students teaching their classes, grading papers, large lectures with hundreds of students and attendance is not something they worry about. Either you are there or you're not. You pass or not - it's your responsibility. I think this is one of the differences between a community college and a university. That is why many students flounder when they go away to a four year school but do well at home at a 2 yr school and transfer later. I personally think most kids fresh out of high school would be better served attending community college and transferring to a 4 year school.

Anyway, this turned out to be more about education in general than it was about nursing. To add to the above, I think that a bachelor's degree gives you a well rounded education that you don't get in an associate's program. It adds a level of prestige to say you have a bachelor's degree. After all, in this state LVN stands for Licenced Vocational Nurse - what is a vocational school - that is for someone out of high school who wants to learn a trade - auto mechanics, computer repair, cosmetology, paralegal, medical/dental assistant, vet tech, welding, interior/fashion design - the list goes on and on. An ADN is a step up from a "vocation" in that it prepares you for a profession but you do not get the level of education you get at the bachelor's level. Yes, you may learn the technical skills of nursing as well as or even better than someone at a BSN level because you spend ALL your time doing nursing skills and very little time learning nursing theory, history of nursing, writing research papers, learning statistics and higher sciences with labs.

I wish all nurses would have a bachelor's degree as the standard of practice, if not at entry level at a certain point in time. I think it is important to see nursing as a profession to be respected and as a career and not just a job or trade.

Well said.. When we are intimidated by something, we have a tendency to try to tear it down. The bottom line is, do what you feel is better for you but you don't have to put down what someone else has to make yourself feel better. Regardless of what any of us think, a BSN is a 4 year degree and a ADN is a 2 year applied science (technical) degree. An ADN is trained to be a technical nurse, which would explain the longer clinical hours. A BSN is trained to be more than a technical nurse. If any ADN have taken BSN courses, you know exactly what I mean.

suzy253, RN · Jan 8, 2006

Very well said, Gompers. And just what is "critical thinking" anyway? [rhetorical question, folks...no answer needed] What BSN class teaches this that we ADN folks aren't taking? (answer: nothing).
One thing I have learned over the years, especially when I earned my BA, is that many who have "higher" education think they are automatically smarter/better than those with a "lower" education. Same thing goes for just about any aspect of human nature.
What makes a better RN isn't the training that got them the RN title, it's the person that makes a good (or not so good) RN--period.
Regards,
Ken

Well said Ken. This is the continuous problem both on this board when discussing ADN vs BSN (and horrors: the original 3-year diploma programs) which are few and far between now but great educational experience. It always comes down to is who is better/smarter and the answer is none of them.

Absolutely, it is the person that makes the RN--not the education or training that earned them the RN title. I have absolutely nothing against continuing education; my problem is the bashing that takes place: BSN vs ADN vs diploma. I usually don't take part in the discussion as it's like beating a dead horse over and over again but feel the need to defend my diploma education. :)

Euskadi1946 · Jan 8, 2006

Daytonite, ADN, BSN, we all take the same NCLEX and unless you work for the US Government, state, or county facilities, a BSN makes the difference in money. It is the certifications in specialties that spell the big bucks if that is what nursing students are after. I graduated from an excellent ADN Program that has an excellent reputation for 100% passage on NCLEX and the two years I spent as a nursing student there were two of the hardest years I have ever spent in any school. However I was bound and determined to get my RN and passed NCLEX on the first try. I have worked with excellent nurses from both ADN and BSN Programs and I have worked with lousy nurses from both programs. To me, nursing school is what you make of it regardless of which program you choose to go through and if someone wants to further their education, more power to them. Life is an education and the more we learn the better. Maybe the BSN is more educated in the liberal arts than the ADN but to say that makes the BSN a more superior nurse is just plain, downright WRONG!!!!

West_Coast_Ken, BSN, RN · Jan 9, 2006

I have a BA in Psychology and an ADN in Nursing. I am now completing my BSN online

Hi Ms,

I'm pretty much in the same situation...prior BA working on my ADN in California (program is closer to my home, quicker route to the RN than a BSN ar this point for me).

Just wondering why you chose to do the BSN online rather than go for an MSN online since you already have a bachelor? I am considering the MSN myself once I get a few years of RN experience.

Regards,

Ken

mstigerlily · Jan 9, 2006

I don't have the time to attend school as I work full time. Online learning can be done at your own pace which is easier and works with my schedule, I can do it during off hours when kids are asleep, etc.

Melissa

Hi Ms,
I'm pretty much in the same situation...prior BA working on my ADN in California (program is closer to my home, quicker route to the RN than a BSN ar this point for me).
Just wondering why you chose to do the BSN online rather than go for an MSN online since you already have a bachelor? I am considering the MSN myself once I get a few years of RN experience.
Regards,
Ken

Katydidit34 · Jan 9, 2006

"An ADN is a step up from a "vocation" in that it prepares you for a profession but you do not get the level of education you get at the bachelor's level. Yes, you may learn the technical skills of nursing as well as or even better than someone at a BSN level because you spend ALL your time doing nursing skills and very little time learning nursing theory, history of nursing, writing research papers, learning statistics and higher sciences with labs."

Normally I don't weigh in on these 2 yr vs. 4 yr degree discussions but I am choking on the arrogance of the superior BSN's are better posts. Programs vary from college to college and state to state. In my state, the only thing standing between a BSN and ADN is one year of Government, History and a semester of Statistics. I'm not quite sure how Government and History are relevant to nursing but I'm sure a BSN prepared nurse can answer that question. Quite frankly, who's to say who gets the better education? Instructors at the CC has fewer students per class and is able to provide more indiviualized attention to their students. Hmm, more personalized attention for less money, that would make the choice to pursue an ADN fairly intelligent I would think. However, what is the point in insulting each other? A great nurse is a great nurse and a bad nurse is a bad nurse regardless of their education. Like someone posted earlier, all of the backbiting and "I'm more intelligent than you are" comments do not further the profession, it degrades it. I'm kinda thinking it makes all of us look very unitelligent.

Gompers, BSN, RN · Jan 9, 2006

"An ADN is a step up from a "vocation" in that it prepares you for a profession but you do not get the level of education you get at the bachelor's level. Yes, you may learn the technical skills of nursing as well as or even better than someone at a BSN level because you spend ALL your time doing nursing skills and very little time learning nursing theory, history of nursing, writing research papers, learning statistics and higher sciences with labs."
Normally I don't weigh in on these 2 yr vs. 4 yr degree discussions but I am choking on the arrogance of the superior BSN's are better posts. Programs vary from college to college and state to state. In my state, the only thing standing between a BSN and ADN is one year of Government, History and a semester of Statistics. I'm not quite sure how Government and History are relevant to nursing but I'm sure a BSN prepared nurse can answer that question. Quite frankly, who's to say who gets the better education? Instructors at the CC has fewer students per class and is able to provide more indiviualized attention to their students. Hmm, more personalized attention for less money, that would make the choice to pursue an ADN fairly intelligent I would think. However, what is the point in insulting each other? A great nurse is a great nurse and a bad nurse is a bad nurse regardless of their education. Like someone posted earlier, all of the backbiting and "I'm more intelligent than you are" comments do not further the profession, it degrades it. I'm kinda thinking it makes all of us look very unitelligent.

Yes, I can answer that question. Government and history have NOTHING to do with nursing. That is the difference between a BSN and an ADN. The ADN education focuses only on nursing. A bachelor's degree is a more rounded one, with education in things NOT related to the student's major. The post you quoted plainly states that an ADN program is just as good, if not better, than a BSN program as far as technical nursing education goes. Not all of us are saying that a BSN is better - just more well-rounded.

I find it hard to believe that only one year of government, history, and statistics is the only difference. That's less than one year's worth of classes - and most BSN programs require at least 40 more credits to graduate than ADN programs. Maybe it's different with state schools. But I went to a private school, and believe me, I've compared the difference between my required courses and that of the community college ADN program. The nursing classes were all there - just different names - and most of the same science courses. But that's all their program was - nursing and science. I had to take TWO YEARS of non-nursing classes. TWO YEARS. English, literature, history, computer science, psychology, philosophy, theology, theater, statistics...

I don't feel like I'm bashing the ADN at all. I'm just saying that while the nursing education is pretty much the same, it's the "other stuff" that makes a BSN more well-rounded. It's a FACT. BSNs don't go through school complaining that they have to take non-nursing classes because they KNOW that is what a Bachelor's degree entails. If you have no interest in that stuff, then go for an Associate's. But it wasn't very hard doing all those classes, and I cannot begin to tell you how much I learned those first two years in school. It was wonderful!