withholding medications ethical dilemma

Nurses General Nursing

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  1. Was this ethical nursing practice?

    • 5
      Yes
    • 31
      No
    • 13
      Grey area

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I have been a CNA for 5 years. i am also a nursing student (BSN/RN) on my last quarter. i work as a registry CNA right now, so i see a lot of different nurses and units etc.

I was on an ICU unit with a elderly female pt who was there for encephalopathy after trauma to the head. she fell outside a liquor store. she has history of alcohol abuse but she denies recent consumption. the liquor store owner states she regularly buys alcohol. she takes anxiolytics at home for anxiety. shes also on SSRI antidepressants. she has a history of chronic lower back pain, neck pain, and states she has pain all over.

I was called in to sit with the patient. when i came she was really agitated and anxious and kept trying to get out of bed. she is A/O X4. shes been there for 5 days now. she continuously asked for her pain and anxiety meds. she had, tylenol q4hr prn (mild to moderate pain 1-6) norco q4hr prn (sever pian 7-10), lorazepam q2hr agitation (on a scale CIWA scale 0.5-2g).

she knows her meds but doesnt know what times theyre suppposed to be given. she asked the nurse but the nurse refused to give her the times because she thought the patient was addicted and drug seeking. the nurse would say "thats all you care about is your painkillers to get off. you dont ask about anything else".

i was sitting with her the whole time and she was shaking and visible anxious the whole time. the nurse would refuse to give her lorazepam or pain meds until she was literally ready to get out of bed.

based on her CIWA she was suppsoed to get at least 0.5 to 1g q2hr however she only gave it twice the whole shift. at the beginning and at the end.

the mobile xray came. from her xrays i saw she had plates pins and other surgical metals in her neck. so that explains the neck pain.

the nurses excuse for withholding the pt meds was that her blood pressure was too low and her respirations were too low. her blood pressure and respiration would naturally lower when she fell asleep but shot up to normal when she was awake. so the pt is anxious so is constantly looking at the clock, so i advised her to relax and try to sleep so that the time passes faster. now, the nurse comes in to assess the patient but every time she would come, the patient was napping. the nurse would write down pt's v/s and leave. then the pt would wake up and ask for her meds and anxiolytics. the nurse would come in and say that her v/s are too low even though they arent when shes awake. so this goes on for the whole shift. i told the nurse that shes axious and in pain but the nurse just shrugs it off and says shes an alcoholic, all she wants to do is get high.

this RN was floating from another unit to the ICU. shes from a medsurg floor.

in my head this is not ethical practice. is it? pain and anxiety are subjective. sometimes objective data can help us assess a patient's pain or anxiety but the patient's word should be taken as truth when it comes to pain or other subjective data. or at least thats what our nursing school teaches us. im always learning so please do provide constructive criticism thanks!

Thank you for any feedback!

I realize you think you were being helpful, especially because you are sitting with the patient for several hours, but it sounds like the patient was trying to play you. It is possible that there was a plan of care that was handed off from RN to RN and you may not have been aware. The patient asking you why she was in the hospital could be two things, one she is trying to get to you, or two, she is confused. As an RN if someone asks me why they are in the hospital, first try and see what they know instead of just giving information. She may be tring to play a game with you.

All of those questions that she was asking you sound like should have been answered by the RN..

ive been a CNA for 5 years, i can tell sometimes even better than the RN that a patient is confused sometimes. they are only there for a few minutes and leave. im there constantly assessing the patients LOC.

the pt was not confused. the RN and i communicated about her care. i didnt agree with the way she witheld those meds (because the RN thought she was drug seeking) and the way she acted towards the patient. im just trying to provide the same standard of care to everyone. if the meds or interventions are inapropriate for a patient, then you tell the patient its inappropriateat the time for X reasons.. you dont criticize or talk down to ANY patient.

i didnt just tell the pt everything first you asses the patient's knowledge... cmon guys

idk how i became the one in the wrong.

i guess i should just be a mindless sitter smh... do only what is asked of me and nothing more.

99% of nurses love me because i provide them with a lot of information they probably wouldnt have gathered. i do everything im supposed to do and more.

i let nurses know when their IVs are infiltrated etc...

i did.

OP, you are playing with fire. You overstepped by looking into this patient's history and meds and you'll be lucky if it it isn't flagged and caught by IT as a privacy violation. If not, you dodged a major bullet.

I was a PCT/sitter and student for a loonnng time while in school. The is so much more to this situation that you are not privy to, nor should you be. You are NOT the nurse.

You just don't know what you don't know about assessment, addiction, withdrawal. Keep your head down, your ears open, you may learn something. And stay out of patient charts, lest you get DNRd from another facility. Huge mistake. Hope you've learned from this.

What? Normal practice for a sitter/attendant is to let the RN know that the patient has some questions about her care.

i did

99% of nurses love me because i provide them with a lot of information they probably wouldnt have gathered.

I guarantee you would not provide me with more information than I would gather other than direct observations you made while I wasn't present while you are performing a role involving continuous direct observation.

You became the one in the wrong here because your motivations are showing.

Why were you pouring through the chart? Because the patient had questions about her POC? Because the nurses like it when you give them information that for one reason or another they didn't know? Because you're a nursing student? Because patients deserve to know things?

Obviously sitters are in a position of continuous observation, they should have more info about observations here and there. That has nothing to do with pouring through a chart and nothing to do with getting in the middle of a situation like this. I edited out a previous comment that I believe you were involved, unawares, in a triangulation. Well, it sounds like that's exactly what you jumped into head-first.

You were in the chart because you hoped to find out if the nurse was doing what she was supposed to be doing.

Completely aside from the nurse's handling of this situation:

1. Your role is to provide direct observation of the patient, to provide hands-on care that would be provided in the CNA role, and to assist with real-time safety monitoring and maintenance.

2. Your role is to inform the RN of the patient's concerns or your own concerns about the patient

3. Your role is to report concerns about care up the chain of command if there is no solution underway after informing the RN

4. Your role is to leave the investigating to the person to whom you reported.

Hope that clears all of this up.

thanks for putting words in my mouth

Specializes in CMSRN, hospice.
Was the nurse assessing CIWA every hour? Were there other signs besides the anxiety? Was she hallucinating, sweaty, was she shaking?

The purpose of Ativan with a CIWA is to prevent DTs. You have to score s certain amount to be able to get the Ativan and there's about 10 different things you assess.

If this patient is on scheduled pain meds and anxiety meds at home, they should be scheduled in the hospital. That needed to be addressed by the nurse.

I don't know why a medsurg nurse was floated to ICU. That can be dangerous. Any floor nurses that we hire on our unit still go through an orientation because things are very different.

Maybe this nurse just needed some education. Unfortunately, I'm this day and age of the "opioid crisis" people with chronic pain get labeled as drug seeking and some nurses find it appropriate to withhold meds.

Even the drug addict can experience pain.

I wish I could like this twice. While VS while sleeping do need to be considered when giving these meds, that is not the only factor, especially when DTs is a risk for the patient. Supportive care and other meds can be given in the event that the patient's respirations and BP are dropping, but to just not medicate if the patient is experiencing withdrawal is cruel and dangerous. A physician should have been involved to determine what other measures were necessary.

And yeah, that is a terrible message to reinforce to the patient. "You're just an addict. I'm not going to listen to you, help you, or educate you." Really harsh and damaging.

It is absolutely okay to bring these concerns to a charge nurse, MD, manager, or anyone else you can talk to. Your instincts are correct that this was an unsatisfactory approach to the situation; trust those instincts and advocate!

Edit, now that I've read the whole thread, lol: I still stand by medicating patients appropriately when they are withdrawing; however, many posters have raised important points that I hadn't considered when answering. Ultimately, it sounds like maybe this nurse had a sucky attitude toward addicts, which isn't okay. But the patient certainly could have been staff splitting; that does happen a lot when you have techs, nurses, and doctors who all see different pieces of the puzzle. For this reason, it's important to talk to each other, have a game plan, and address disagreements away from the patient. Alcohol withdrawal in particular is tricky, and lots of patients do fake tremors, hallucinations, etc. to get what they want. The narcotic withdrawal just adds to the factors to consider. Could have been real; some patients do sleep and are still actively withdrawing. But it takes some experience to weed out what is a performance vs. what is not.

Ultimately, not having seen the patient, I don't know how to evaluate the nurse's care, other than that it sounds less than therapeutic. But the other posters have given you good advice about what you can control, which is your use of PHI and how to approach coworkers when you disagree with them.

Meh... I don't find looking at the h&p and trying to answer questions about medications a grievous violation. When giving report to the sitter, I do try to provide a little background... and if I am utilized as a sitter, I do check meds before calling the primary nurse.

However, I do find the story a bit suspect. If the patient is alert and oriented, she doesn't need to ask why she's in the hospital. She should know.

If she's withdrawing and agitated, needing substantial doses of medication, there really wouldn't be time to comb through the charts. You'd be too busy as the sitter.

There is no doubt in my mind bias towards addiction in nursing exists but honestly, from the details given, I don't think I would've given a lot of medication either.

Also I do agree that it was not wise to post in such detail on a public forum... particularly social details. That's a no-no.

I realize you think you were being helpful, especially because you are sitting with the patient for several hours, but it sounds like the patient was trying to play you. It is possible that there was a plan of care that was handed off from RN to RN and you may not have been aware. The patient asking you why she was in the hospital could be two things, one she is trying to get to you, or two, she is confused. As an RN if someone asks me why they are in the hospital, first try and see what they know instead of just giving information. She may be tring to play a game with you.

All of those questions that she was asking you sound like should have been answered by the RN.

I don't disagree except that the RN "caring" for this pt was such a miserable, cruel witch and likely would have said something like "They couldn't just leave you in the sewer where you belong" or something equally edifying.

Specializes in PICU.
I don't disagree except that the RN "caring" for this pt was such a miserable, cruel witch and likely would have said something like "They couldn't just leave you in the sewer where you belong" or something equally edifying.

True. It doesn't help that per the sitter, the nurse said things like that. I was a sitter while in nursing school and thought I was helpful, and I have also been in the role of the nurse with a sitter who was "overly helpful". For me, there are two things going on, you have a nurse who may be trying to stick to a plan that was set out by the team, and was fed up with being called into the room thus not justly treating the patient, but then you have a sitter who in attempts to be "helpful" could be a person being played by a manipulative patient.

In my case, there was a very specific plan that was discussed in rounds, and it was not going to be easy. The patient was really talking it up to the sitter how bad she was being treated. The sitter would ask in front of the patient about why med X wasn't given when it was yesterday. I had to keep a straight face and say , this was not in today's plan, the plan was X. The sitter told me in front of the patient, but she is so agitated and uncomfortable. .. You can imagine how my day was. The patient would just look at me and I had to firmly repeat, as was discussed in rounds, this is the plan, the patient was aware, but later complained to the sitter that she was NEVER included in plans (not true), at least my shift.

True. It doesn't help that per the sitter, the nurse said things like that. I was a sitter while in nursing school and thought I was helpful, and I have also been in the role of the nurse with a sitter who was "overly helpful". For me, there are two things going on, you have a nurse who may be trying to stick to a plan that was set out by the team, and was fed up with being called into the room thus not justly treating the patient, but then you have a sitter who in attempts to be "helpful" could be a person being played by a manipulative patient.

In my case, there was a very specific plan that was discussed in rounds, and it was not going to be easy. The patient was really talking it up to the sitter how bad she was being treated. The sitter would ask in front of the patient about why med X wasn't given when it was yesterday. I had to keep a straight face and say , this was not in today's plan, the plan was X. The sitter told me in front of the patient, but she is so agitated and uncomfortable. .. You can imagine how my day was. The patient would just look at me and I had to firmly repeat, as was discussed in rounds, this is the plan, the patient was aware, but later complained to the sitter that she was NEVER included in plans (not true), at least my shift.

I was a sitter for 3 years while in nursing school. There was so much manipulation and pitting the sitter against the nurse. As a sitter, you're there all day with the patient who is constantly telling you how they aren't being cared for. You start to believe them, then bam! You and the nurse are pitted against each other and the patient gets what they want. Someone on their side.

In the attempts to be helpful, the sitter telling the nurse in front of a patient that they should be getting xyz med, could increase the patient's anxiety. In the patient's head, they now have someone on their side agreeing that they are being treating poorly, greatly undercutting the crucial nurse patient relationship.

Specializes in Geriatrics, Dialysis.
how am i violating HIPAA? i am assigned to that patient. i am not looking at any other patients. she asked me if she had her anti anxiety ordered because she takes them at home. i checked (need to know basis) i m sure checking my patients mar more unethical than what the nurse did... (sarcasm). the patient also asked me why she was at the hospital, so i checked the H&P.

i am not using any patient identifiers. we only know that shes a female. so how is that a hipaa violation? so are all case studies hipaa violations too?

based on 2018 hipaa, thats not a violation.

Sorry but you really should know this if you are as far along in your education as you say. You were not this patients nurse and had zero business looking at the MAR or the H&P . In your capacity as sitter this is not information that was needed to do your job. That makes accessing the patients records a clear HIPAA violation.

Not that the nurse was correct in her interactions with the patient but your complaint about medication not being given is based on information that not only isn't complete but was also obtained illegally. You should be really careful who you share this story with or your indignation might just bite you in the butt.

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