When is it ethical to talk about religion with a patient?

Nurses General Nursing

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I was talking with a collegue the other day and she described a conversation with a pt where it sounds as if she were basically evangelizing. Now I had been told by my pastor (Catholic priest), who happens to be a medical ethics specialist and was at one time the chief ethicist for a large Catholic healthcare system. He told me that it's not ethical to try to convert pts and that you have to be very careful about this.

Religion is an awkward subject anyways, much like politics. I ususally follow the pts lead, or look for clues in the room as to their religious persuasion or belief system. But, then again, I don't personally believe people go to Hell just for their beliefs. I have one nurse friend who told me that she will whisper the name of Jesus in dying pt's ears.

Does anyone here pray with pts? I've done that a couple of times, but generally I treat religious beliefs as a private matter.

Specializes in Peds, Med-Surg, Disaster Nsg, Parish Nsg.
for me, one of my most important roles as a nurse is to assess and respond to the spiritual and emotional needs of my patients. (my patients' needs, not my own). ...

colbyjack....i totally agree. we need to assess and respond to our patient's needs and not our own needs ... physical, spiritual and emotional. this is part of caring for the whole patient.

Specializes in Tele, Infectious Disease, OHN.
Baptising fetuses: we have a very very large Catholic Hispanic population so I'm pretty safe in assuming the mom who had the miscarriage is not Jewish. Might not be Catholic, but probably not Jewish. I am not Catholic, but a priest once told me that in a pinch, it doesn't matter who does the baptising as long as it happens. As for the babies who code in the ER and no parents are around, we take a chance an play it safe that a baptism would be a good thing. I think if if I accidentally baptised a Jewish baby or a baby of any other non-Christian faith, that the God of that belief would understand the intent and forgive. I think a rabbi would too. And this is not something that would be done if the parents are present, only when the baby is alone and there does not seem to be any other recourse. I'm sorry that you, as a Jewish parent, would be furious with me but I would hope that you would come to understand that I made the best decision possible at the time. If my baby were in extremis and I was not there to tell the staff what religion we are, I would be grateful if a Jewish nurse said whatever is said over Jewish babies because it would open a road to Heaven for my child. It may not be the road I would take as part of my faith, but if a Jewish nurse made sure that my baby made her way back to God in the only way that she knew how, that would be good enough for me.

This brought tears to my eyes....

i don't talk religion or politics with pts..

if i am asked i will explain my faith [never my politic trends]

i disagree with the post that atheists don't try and convert..i have worked with nurses who almost every shift would make a religious joke

one little penetecostal [sp?] girl quit because of it

i think that we should have respect for our fellow nurses...if you believe that they are making the patients uncomfortable talk them one on one before you decide to report them..you don't know maybe this is what the pt wanted

Specializes in Tele, Infectious Disease, OHN.

Has anyone ever tried to convert you to the righteousness of Jewish belief/Islam/Hinduism/Shinto/Ba'hai/Buddha while you were ailing and near death? And how would you feel about somone doing so - trying to "educate" you or your loved ones about how they need to convert now, for fear of "Hell" and how sick they are at this time?

I think this would be horribly inappropriate. I would be mighty p*ssed off if someone did that to me or my family member. I have prayed in my mind for for many patients and people have asked me to pray with them. I would NEVER threaten someone with eternal damnation, on the deathbed or not. As a nurse that is not my job. My job is to care for my patient. As a Christian nurse I am comforted by my prayers, whether they are in my head or said aloud.

Specializes in PICU, surgical post-op.
For me, one of my most important roles as a nurse is to assess and respond to the spiritual and emotional needs of my patients. (My patients' needs, not my own) ... Isn't our job to support our patients in understanding and clarifying their own answers, or at the least to allow space for that?

tnbutterfly already agreed, but i'm going to second (or third) it ... it's the patient's needs we're dealing with. I think that's where a lot of people forget themselves in arenas like politics and religion. They're such core issues to many people out there that it's hard to put them aside when we don our scrubs. I know I have to fight against myself at times when I'm supporting a family in a religious or spiritual practice that I don't agree with. But hey ... I signed up for it. As I said to my doped-up scoli today as I wiped her bum, "Hey baby, this is why I get paid the big bucks." Maybe it was the dilaudid, but she sure laughed.

whenever i speak with my hospice patients about end of life/afterlife concerns, that my 'stated' beliefs are as gen'l as possible. in other words, if my particular religion had certain doctrine(s) that could potentially reject certain members of the human race, i wouldn't share it with pts for my goal is to make them feel as safe, secure and loved as they leave this life. no matter what, it is critical that everyone (and i do mean everyone) dies w/o fear or trepidation. for those who believe in a God, what could be more comforting than to know one is universally embraced and cherished, w/o the fear of rejection or judgment? it should be all about pt needs...

leslie

So many people made great contributions to this thread, this is a great website. Nurses are the greatest!

Specializes in Peds, Med-Surg, Disaster Nsg, Parish Nsg.
So many people made great contributions to this thread, this is a great website. Nurses are the greatest!

Yes it is great that, although many of us have differing beliefs and opinions, we can come together here and discuss this. Hopefully this will make all of us more open to try to base our care on our patients' needs and not on our own needs. After all....this is what we as nurses are trained to do.....to meet the needs of our patients.

As to the baptism question ... if a baby is Jewish and a Catholic person sprinkles some water on it, does that make the baby Catholic? I think, provided God is omniscent and omnipotent, as most people of monotheistic faith will agree, He can figure it all out, no?

I'm afraid the point opposing this practice, presented by caroladybelle and TrudyRN was missed. It isn't that G-d gets confused. It's that it's a highly personal, private decision that is either removed from the parents or invaded upon because of the NURSE'S personal choices. The nurse's personal religious choices have absolutely no place when one is caring for others, and particularly if that nurse is aware that the intrusion is unwelcome.

On the few occasions where religion is brought into the room between a patient and myself, or amongst family members and myself, I am always very careful in how I respond. If I know the family (or whomever I am speaking with) has expressed a particular religious faith, and it's not mine, I let them know I am more a spiritual person than a religious one; I put more faith in G-d as a divine entity than I do in following each specific practice as outlined in my faith. In this way I have not negated their religious choices nor possibly alienated them by expressing my own. My desire is to be of comfort to that patient and/or family when they need it, not give them concern that they can't be open with me, or that I "don't get it" because I am not of the same faith.

I recently had a patient die, and was with the family for many long hours beforehand. They requested Last Rites as well as held hands and prayed many times. When I was nearby (when entering to provide care or whatever) , I stood quietly, respectfully. I did not partake, but I doubt the family noticed. It was all about THEM, as it should be.

If one thinks about it, the patient and/or family is never REALLY interested in what the Nurse thinks about faith, are they? They merely want support for what THEY think. And being a bit vague about my own beliefs has always worked for that: people hear what they want to hear, and my conscious is intact.

I'm afraid the point opposing this practice, presented by caroladybelle and TrudyRN was missed. It isn't that G-d gets confused. It's that it's a highly personal, private decision that is either removed from the parents or invaded upon because of the NURSE'S personal choices. The nurse's personal religious choices have absolutely no place when one is caring for others, and particularly if that nurse is aware that the intrusion is unwelcome.

My religious practices do NOT come into my actions regarding babies. My actions are based on the fact that the chances of a Hispanic baby being Catholic are extremely high in my area, and also from personal experience: a mother was hysterical enough when her child died, but she kept crying out that the baby had never been baptised. When she found out the nursing staff did it for her, she was grateful and relieved.

Mind you, I do not advocate this practice willy-nilly, but in this area it works because of the demographics. You're right, it is a highly personal and private decision, but I say again: if my child were in extremis and my husband and/or I were not available, I would be grateful for any religious action taken by a nurse who acted in good faith to see that my child made her way straight back to where she came from, whether that action was necessary by my faith or not. I would much rather baptise a baby and find out I didn't have to, than not baptise and create another fear for Catholic parents.

This conversation has completely taken away the original intent of the thread, I think. I also think it's time that we agree to disagree on this subject. I will bow out.

Tazzi, I appreciate what you're saying. But when you quoted me, it was a direct response to another person's post, and nothing to do with yours. I responded to a different line of thought being presented.

Obviously your demographics within your nursing community are such that you are probably better off doing what you do. That is not the mindset I was referring to, however; it was one in which there is no such apparent need on the part of the family, but rather, the nurse.

I don't believe any of this thread takes away a single bit from the original intent of the original questions posed. Actually, I think it expands and complements it. How each individual views his or her faith (and that relationship with patients), and how that should or should not present itself while on the clock, is exactly what the thread is about.

I've appreciated the discussion to date, and hope that it continues.

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