What can I do with my BSN that Assoc. RN's can't? - page 18
I just graduated with my BSN this spring. I'm working as a PCA2/Graduate Nurse at a local hospital until I take my boards... I am taking my HESI tomorrow at the college I graduated from. This is an... Read More
Jul 18, '04Occupation: RN-i (RETIRED) Specialty: ORTHOPAEDICS-CERTIFIED SINCE 89 ; From: US ; Joined: May '00; Posts: 14,479; Likes: 2,298The Moderators appreciate all the excellent input. In 24 hours this thread will be archived Thank you all for your views on the subject.
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Jul 18, '04Occupation: Utilization Review, prior Intake Mgr Home Care Specialty: 40 year(s) of experience in Home Care, Vents, Telemetry, Home infusion ; From: PA, US ; Joined: Oct '00; Posts: 27,546; Likes: 13,753what is a professional--us governments definition
29cfr541.541.301 - learned professions.
(a) the ``learned'' professions are described in sec. 541.3(a)(1) as
those requiring knowledge of an advanced type in a field of science or
learning customarily acquired by a prolonged course of specialized
intellectual instruction and study as distinguished from a general
academic education and from an apprenticeship and from training in the
performance of routine mental, manual, or physical processes.
(b) the first element in the requirement is that the knowledge be of
an advanced type. thus, generally speaking, it must be knowledge which
cannot be attained at the high school level.
(c) second, it must be knowledge in a field of science or learning.
this serves to distinguish the professions from the mechanical arts
where in some instances the knowledge is of a fairly advanced type, but
not in a field of science or learning.
(d) the requisite knowledge, in the third place, must be customarily
acquired by a prolonged course of specialized intellectual instruction
and study. here it should be noted that the word ``customarily'' has
been used to meet a specific problem occurring in many industries. as is
well known, even in the classical profession of law, there are still a
few practitioners who have gained their knowledge by home study and
experience. characteristically, the members of the profession are
graduates of law schools, but some few of their fellow professionals
whose status is equal to theirs, whose attainments are the same, and
whose word is the same did not enjoy that opportunity. such persons are
not barred from the exemption. the word ``customarily'' implies that in
the vast majority of cases the specific academic training is a
prerequisite for entrance into the profession. it makes the exemption
available to the occasional lawyer who has not gone to law school, or
the occasional chemist who is not the possessor of a degree in
chemistry, etc., but it does not include the members of such quasi-
professions as journalism in which the bulk of the employees have
acquired their skill by experience rather than by any formal specialized
training. it should be noted also that many employees in these quasi-
professions may qualify for exemption under other sections of the
regulations in subpart a of this part or under the alternative paragraph
of the ``professional'' definition applicable to the artistic fields.
(e)(1) generally speaking the professions which meet the requirement
for a prolonged course of specialized intellectual instruction and study
include law, medicine, nursing, accounting, actuarial computation,
engineering, architecture, teaching, various types of physical,
chemical, and biological sciences, including pharmacy and registered or
certified medical technology and so forth. the typical symbol of the
professional training and the best prima facie evidence of its
possession is, of course, the appropriate academic degree, and in these
professions an advanced academic degree is a standard (if not universal)
prequisite. in the case of registered (or certified) medical
technologists, successful completion of 3 academic years of
preprofessional study in an accredited college or university plus a
fourth year of professional course work in a school of medical
technology approved by the council of medical education of the american
medical association will be recognized as a prolonged course of
specialized intellectual instruction and study. registered nurses have
traditionally been recognized as professional employees by the division
in its enforcement of the act. although, in some cases, the course of
study has become shortened (but more concentrated), nurses who are
registered by the appropriate state examining board will continue to be
recognized as having met the requirement of sec. 541.3(a)(1) of the
(2) the areas in which professional exemptions may be available are
expanding. as knowledge is developed, academic training is broadened,
degrees are offered in new and diverse fields, specialties are created
and the true specialist, so trained, who is given new and greater
responsibilities, comes closer to meeting the tests. however, just as an
excellent legal stenographer is not a lawyer, these technical
specialists must be more than highly skilled technicians. many employees
in industry rise to executive or administrative positions by their
natural ability and good commonsense, combined with long experience with
a company, without the aid of a college education or degree in any area.
a college education would perhaps give an executive or administrator a
more cultured and polished approach but the necessary know-how for doing
the executive job would depend upon the person's own inherent talent.
the professional person, on the other hand, attains his status after a
prolonged course of specialized intellectual instruction and study.
(f) many accountants are exempt as professional employees
(regardless of whether they are employed by public accounting firms or
by other types of enterprises). (some accountants may qualify for
exemption as bona fide administrative employees.) however, exemption of
accountants, as in the case of other occupational groups (see
sec. 541.308), must be determined on the basis of the individual
employee's duties and the other criteria in the regulations. it has been
the divisions' experience that certified public accountants who meet the
salary requirement of the regulations will, except in unusual cases,
meet the requirements of the professional exemption since they meet the
tests contained in sec. 541.3. similarly, accountants who are not
certified public accountants may also be exempt as professional
employees if they actually perform work which requires the consistent
exercise of discretion and judgment and otherwise meet the tests
prescribed in the definition of ``professional'' employee. accounting
clerks, junior accountants, and other accountants, on the other hand,
normally perform a great deal of routine work which is not an essential
part of and necessarily incident to any professional work which they may
do. where these facts are found such accountants are not exempt. the
title ``junior accountant,'' however, is not determinative of failure to
qualify for exemption any more than the title ``senior accountant''
would necessarily imply that the employee is exempt....
[38 fr 11390, may 7, 1973. redesignated and amended at 57 fr 46744, oct.
why is it, a say, ba coupled with an adn not good enough?
definition of a professional includes: learning customarily acquired by a prolonged course of specialized intellectual instruction and study.
few adn programs include education and clinical training in public health or home health nursing, leadership/management and administration, and research.
it is intended that graduates with a bs major in nursing will have a sound educational basis for beginning professional practice, for continuing development, for graduate study in nursing, and for accepting professional and civic responsibilities. the addition of the above courses helps to round out professional nursing practice--areas not covered in a ba program.Last edit by NRSKarenRN on Jul 18, '04
Jul 18, '04Occupation: PMHNP From: US ; Joined: Dec '03; Posts: 2,918; Likes: 1,546There is no possible way to say, "Let me know your education level and I'll explain it to you..." without offending.
It's clear you do not want my learned opinion so please consult books and search the web for this information. As I said before, patients have died due to faulty patient teaching. Patients appreciate an extensive history and physical. I heard a physician last night say that history taking is an art and few physicians know how to do it anymore. A very extensive history can reap benefits and save time and money and improve patient outcome.
Hopefully, it's clear by now that you don't want to suggest to AD nurses that they aren't "real" nurses--goes double for LPN's, by the way. But education is never wasted.Last edit by zenman on Jul 18, '04
Jul 18, '04Occupation: Patient Education Specialty: 7 year(s) of experience in LDRP; Education ; Joined: Mar '01; Posts: 7,470; Likes: 56Quote from SmilingBluEyesFor the record, I'm personally not that bent on a BSN. I'm all for ANY 4 year degree for nurses. But since the BSN is a bachelor's degree with a major in nursing, which is the profession we are talking about, most discussions will default to that.I have said this before. Why is it, a say, BA coupled with an ADN not good enough? Why must it be BSN only?
Jul 18, '04Occupation: PMHNP From: US ; Joined: Dec '03; Posts: 2,918; Likes: 1,546Quote from suzy253I guess you do not realize the value of education. Hope your children do not pick up this attitude.Surely you don't need computer programming for nursing to learn "think logically, anticipate programs, cause & effect"....maybe you do but a lot of us don't.
Classical literature to read/analyze info, interpret subtlies, articulate & defend views to a public audience. ??? Whatever....whatever it takes for you.
Look, we're all pleased as punch you have your BSN degree. What puts me off is those who think this is the only way to go and any other way you don't learn enough, you're not a professional, think less of those with ASN and diploma schooled....and I could go on and on as well.
Jul 18, '04Occupation: PMHNP From: US ; Joined: Dec '03; Posts: 2,918; Likes: 1,546Quote from earle58Just as I told nursemike...since you don't believe me go take a course, surf the web or look in a nursing assessment and history taking book. Then let me see you back track!NURSEMIKE!!!
thank you, thank you and thank you. someone who gets it...
Jul 18, '04Occupation: PMHNP From: US ; Joined: Dec '03; Posts: 2,918; Likes: 1,546Quote from earle58A 4 year degree is considered the basic degree and includes gen ed subjects, just as in all 4 yr degree programs. It makes for a well-rounded person. The BSN is not a "specialist" degree; that's where the masters degree comes in.a bsn means bachelors of science in nursing ...so yes, i would prefer courses to be oriented to that topic. furthermore, any sort of learning (not ltd to college) should be encouraged and embraced. but if i were to use the same rationales as you, i could say just as easily that it's perfectly ok for my son to play his video games all day for he is mastering eye and hand coordination, learning to strategize and utilizing his math skills. gen'l education is perfect for becoming well rounded but again, i think a bsn should be focused on nsg., for the specialty that it is. and even then, learning in this profession, is lifelong.
You son can benefit from video games...even the military uses them for training. He just should not spend all day on them! All learning is lifelong; we still need to start everyone off at the same level. The profession is messed up enough.Last edit by zenman on Jul 18, '04
Jul 18, '04Occupation: PMHNP From: US ; Joined: Dec '03; Posts: 2,918; Likes: 1,546Quote from SmilingBluEyesA BA coupled with ADN is good, but you realize that there are more nursing courses in the BSN program. I'm all for there to be an easy route for someone in the position you mentioned to pick up the additional nursing courses with the least pain and agony.I have said this before. Why is it, a say, BA coupled with an ADN not good enough? Why must it be BSN only? If education ( and well roundedness) is soooo valuable to the profession, then let us recognize the value of an ADN coupled with a prior or new baccalaureate degree, or higher, and quit making it all about BSN! I would LOVE to study another major, say in foreign languages, majoring and minoring in them. I find returning for RN-BSN soooo unsatisfying and would MUCH rather do that. But no, they want us to have BSN only to advance in nursing. How short sighted is that? I think an ADN provides the whole "base" we need to be registered nurses, and would think coupling it with a degree of another discipline more than valuable. Anyone else?
Jul 18, '04Occupation: PMHNP From: US ; Joined: Dec '03; Posts: 2,918; Likes: 1,546Quote from P_RNWait! Have we made this the longest thread ever? :hatparty:The Moderators appreciate all the excellent input. In 24 hours this thread will be archived Thank you all for your views on the subject.
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Jul 18, '04Occupation: PMHNP From: US ; Joined: Dec '03; Posts: 2,918; Likes: 1,546Just another point...and this really scares me! I've taught in both ADN and BSN programs and have done so twice with a few years in between both teaching positions. The second time I went back to teaching, I could tell that the education was slipping. The college even had remedial courses! I'm sitting there in my office wondering why the colleges had to pick up where the high schools have failed. The difference between my experence on the floor 30 years ago and now is the reason my wife has never stayed in a hospital by herself. As a supervisor, I'm on all the floors and I see many things I wish I didn't have to see. So, yes, I argue for more education for the entry level. All my education (8 years of college, plus) whether it's in nursing or not has been very valuable and is one reason I see things the way I do. If I had Ph.D., I would have even a different perspective. I don't bad mouth people with more education than me because I recognize the benefits of it. I may even go to NP school because I don't feel I know enough! The more educaton one gets, the more one realizes how little one knows. I challenge those of you who have argued for 2-3 years of nursing to continue your education. I'm sure you will then have a different perspective on the situation. And regarding gen ed courses..."the natural science view of the world is ceasing to be an essentially natural scientific approach" ... Werner Heisenberg. It's been fun!Last edit by zenman on Jul 18, '04
Jul 18, '04Joined: Apr '02; Posts: 38,750; Likes: 16,271I don't think so Randy. The additional BSN courses I have had and will have are not going to be all that helpful for me and my goals, Randy. It's just filling squares. I repeat, IF we are to be as well-rounded as all that, (by far the biggest argument I see pro-BSN people make), then I say open it up a bit and make it acceptable and equal to have an ADN plus Baccalaureate and Master's degrees of choice. If education is of so much value as all that, then surely you can't argue with me. Community health nursing and Research topics are not helpful to me in my situation, and won't be. I would much more enjoy a more liberal-arts background. And I believe I would gain and be able to offer more to my obstetric patients of varying backgrounds. I just dont think that BSN is the be-all, end all to nursing. It really does NOT make better nurses. Education of all sorts should be appreciated, not just BSN.
Jul 18, '04Occupation: PMHNP From: US ; Joined: Dec '03; Posts: 2,918; Likes: 1,546Quote from SmilingBluEyesI can see your point as they will not be helpful for me and my goals. But the point is that we should have one entry level; the BSN (or any 4 year degree in any profession) is not for an individual's goals other than for entering the field of their choice. Everyone has different goals. We would go nuts trying to design a degree plan for everyone and employers would probably go crazy too! However, if you continue to read in your chosen area, Research (and stats) would be helpful in evaulating an article or study...and do your patients not come from the community? The greatest strides in healthcare have come because of public and community health, not from technological advances. Sadly, this is the area that gets the fewest dollars! At one time I did consider getting a masters in Liberal Arts...just for the fun of it and the knowledge since courses outside of nursing give you a wider viewpoint from which to view each patient.I don't think so Randy. The additional BSN courses I have had and will have are not going to be all that helpful for me and my goals, Randy. It's just filling squares. I repeat, IF we are to be as well-rounded as all that, (by far the biggest argument I see pro-BSN people make), then I say open it up a bit and make it acceptable and equal to have an ADN plus Baccalaureate and Master's degrees of choice. If education is of so much value as all that, then surely you can't argue with me. Community health nursing and Research topics are not helpful to me in my situation, and won't be. I would much more enjoy a more liberal-arts background. And I believe I would gain and be able to offer more to my obstetric patients of varying backgrounds. I just dont think that BSN is the be-all, end all to nursing. It really does NOT make better nurses. Education of all sorts should be appreciated, not just BSN.Last edit by zenman on Jul 18, '04
Jul 19, '04Joined: Apr '02; Posts: 38,750; Likes: 16,271what do you think about LPN nurses then, Randy? If one entry level is to be standard,what of LPN's? As we know, many of the lay public have NO clue the difference between RN/LPN/ NP etc. Doctors at times even think "a nurse is a nurse is a nurse". Where do they fit in your idea of the one level entry professional nursing track?