Universal Deathcare.

Nurses General Nursing

Published

So those that support Universal Healthcare and how great it is care to explain to us how it was great for Alfie Evans? Hopefully not coming soon to the America near you.

Specializes in Mental Health, Gerontology, Palliative.
Don't clutter up this discussion with facts.

And for god's sake, what has your extensive experience with the UK health system have to do with anything?

:yes:
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Well to clarify a few things, I am a BSN nurse with enough credits for an MSN if I wanted to bother finishing it up. At this point though I am looking to retire, not do more work. I worked pedi Neuro for over 10 years at a World Renowned Children's hospital. I am quite familiar with Anacephalic and micro cephalic kids. I also have lived in countries with UHC and in fact will be retiring to one with UNC. I also will be maintaining private insurance for that very reason. I want care when and where I chose, not the government.

Finally, yes it took me awhile to answer these questions. I have a life other than this website or even the internet.

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Do you mind pointing me to a source on his EEG's?

The only thing I have seen are normal news reports but according to the media, during the trial expert testimony said there were no brain waves present except during seizures.

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In the uk, the brain stem must not be functioning for brain death to be diagnosed. This is tested with the apnea test (among other things) where on 2 separate occasions the patient is removed from the ventilator and observed for spontaneous respiratory function for 5 minutes. There must be no respiratory function. This may be different from the US definition of brain death. The court reports on this child are in the public domain and are easily searchable and contain information which describes how Alfie's brain stem was still functioning although there was some impairment.

I only wanted to clarify this point as this forum is open to the public and I would not be surprised if it comes to the attention of "Alfie's Army". You may not be aware but in the UK this case has caused what can only be described as a colossal episode of mass hysteria. Individuals who have no link to Alfie or his family have taken up the call to arms almost. These people are persistent, and they absolutely believe that there was a conspiracy to murder Alfie. Emotions are running high and the situation on social media has been volatile. Anyone posting on social media supporting the courts and hospitals decisions regarding Alfie is attacked and hounded. There are facebook groups set up simply with the intention of trolling those who agreed with withdrawal of treatment. Healthcare professionals have had posts screenshotted and bounced between various Facebook groups. These people have been harassed and bullied. There have been reports of individuals tracking down people's places of work and reporting them to their bosses simply for expressing their opinion. Doctors and nurses have been called murderers, there are reports of nurses being spat on and the child's father attempted to accuse the doctors of murder in court.

Often their argument was "well if he's brain dead, it can't hurt to try and it'll make his parents feel better". This is not accurate. I simply wanted to clear up any confusion and clarify the technical point of Alfie not being brain dead according to UK guidelines. I do agree that that little boy was "gone" and that withdrawal of treatment was the kindest thing that could happen for him.

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Specializes in NICU.
if they had down votes, I would give you on.e

Okay. Why?

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Specializes in Emergency, Telemetry, Transplant.
Respectfully, thats not accurate at all. The hospital and attending physicians made the decision to withdraw treatment and provide only palliative care, all the courts did was enforce that decision and allow a date to be set.

It was the hospital themselves that turned to the courts to help enforce their decision.

Now I could certainly by wrong about this, but I though the final order for withdrawing tx. was given by the courts. The physicians, etc. were advocating for that order, but it was issued by the court. We are splitting hairs on this, but I think there is a difference between the court siding with the doctors/hospital and saying that NHS "made" this decision.

Are doctors in the UK employed by the government? Not a rhetorical question--just trying to learn more about the situation.

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Specializes in Mental Health, Gerontology, Palliative.
Well to clarify a few things, I am a BSN nurse with enough credits for an MSN if I wanted to bother finishing it up. At this point though I am looking to retire, not do more work. I worked pedi Neuro for over 10 years at a World Renowned Children's hospital. I am quite familiar with Anacephalic and micro cephalic kids. I also have lived in countries with UHC and in fact will be retiring to one with UNC. I also will be maintaining private insurance for that very reason. I want care when and where I chose, not the government.

Finally, yes it took me awhile to answer these questions. I have a life other than this website or even the internet.

Then shame on you for propagating more of the hysteria

If you've lived in countries with universal healthcare, you know the reality is nothing like you posted in your OP

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Well to clarify a few things, I am a BSN nurse with enough credits for an MSN if I wanted to bother finishing it up. At this point though I am looking to retire, not do more work. I worked pedi Neuro for over 10 years at a World Renowned Children's hospital. I am quite familiar with Anacephalic and micro cephalic kids. I also have lived in countries with UHC and in fact will be retiring to one with UNC. I also will be maintaining private insurance for that very reason. I want care when and where I chose, not the government.

Finally, yes it took me awhile to answer these questions. I have a life other than this website or even the internet.

Which is why I still suspect you are trolling.

Given your high level of education and experience, you really should be able to substantiate:

A- how it would have been in Alfie's best interest to continue treatment.

B- how it would be in society's best interest to stop allowing the courts to protect children from the detrimental judgement of their parents.

C- how this has anything to do with universal health care. You must be familiar with similar cases in this country.

Saying simply that babies should be given a chance at life does not reflect your education, training, or experience. But, it is catchy.

I don't mind if you are trolling- I am impressed by effective trolls, and this one has got legs- so to speak.

But, I do challenge you to put up or shut up.

Using stuff like evidence and facts, (I know that is an out of date approach.) back up your opinion.

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Thats the thing...I have been here a hell of a lit linger than you have. I was one of the first 1000 members here when this started. I survived the great purge of 15 years ago when even the word Heather was enough to get you banned. I dont hve to prove myself to you or anyone else for that matter. I can have my personal held beliefs despite your demand for "science and evidence". So call me a troll if you want, see being a conservtive wirds dont hurt me.

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Specializes in NICU.
Thats the thing...I have been here a hell of a lit linger than you have. I was one of the first 1000 members here when this started. I survived the great purge of 15 years ago when even the word Heather was enough to get you banned. I dont hve to prove myself to you or anyone else for that matter. I can have my personal held beliefs despite your demand for "science and evidence". So call me a troll if you want, see being a conservtive wirds dont hurt me.

...if you've resorted to asserting superiority based on the length of your membership on this board, I suspect you don't have any valid points to make.

It's a shame. This topic is an important one and deserves a better OP.

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Thats the thing...I have been here a hell of a lit linger than you have. I was one of the first 1000 members here when this started. I survived the great purge of 15 years ago when even the word Heather was enough to get you banned. I dont hve to prove myself to you or anyone else for that matter. I can have my personal held beliefs despite your demand for "science and evidence". So call me a troll if you want, see being a conservtive wirds dont hurt me.

Thank you for that response- it really clarifies the validity of your post.

I don't mean "troll" as an insult, more of an observation. Generally speaking, when a well educated and knowledgeable person presents a controversial viewpoint, part of the discussion would be to explain that viewpoint. Otherwise, why share it on an international forum?

A really timely response. I just saw a clip in which a national figure, former NYC mayor Giuliani said "I don't know, how do you separate fact and opinion?"- as if this was difficult, or not exactly what his job as an attorney is. And he said it with a straight face.

In particular, I like your use quotation marks around the words science and evidence. This being an nursing forum, I thought they were relevant. But, as you said, you have been here a long time, and even survived a purge, so, I stand corrected.

It's great for you that your conservativeness (conservatism?) will protect you from wirds. But I have no earthly idea what that means.

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Specializes in Emergency, Telemetry, Transplant.
In particular, I like your use quotation marks around the words science and evidence.

The new "trend" is to put quotes around "certain (many) things" even if it does not "add" to the "message." This is an "concept" the has become particularly "evident" when looking at the Tweets by the current "occupant" of the White House. I'm not saying the OP "holds" all/many/some/none of the "President's" "values," but I have always found the President's "use" of quotes to be "interesting."

Rereading my post, I'm not sure I put enough things in quotes.

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Thats the thing...I have been here a hell of a lit linger than you have. I was one of the first 1000 members here when this started. I survived the great purge of 15 years ago when even the word Heather was enough to get you banned. I dont hve to prove myself to you or anyone else for that matter. I can have my personal held beliefs despite your demand for "science and evidence". So call me a troll if you want, see being a conservtive wirds dont hurt me.

But what's the point of posting on a discussion board if you are unwilling to, you know, discuss.

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